[Pred the Penguin]

That's not what the article you just quoted is really about though, which actually hits on a very serious issue, and what I had the most problems with in high school.

Book, not article

And I know it wasn't, it was just an interesting read which related to what's wrong with High School teaching methods (to which I find this No Zero policy to fall in line with those issues)

Fair enough. Policies like this are redundant anyway. IMO, if the grades of your students are so bad that you don't want to give out zeros, there's something seriously wrong with your teaching/grading methods.

A similar policy was instituted at my school. The teachers were outraged. We literally heard from some teachers how bad they thought school policy was during class. Of course the school had to abandon all notion of telling people what to do without any sort of response.

[Klaustrophobia]

grades aren't necessarily reflective of the teaching.  especially when it's just a result of students not doing the work.

but DAMN i wish i could have not done homework and not had it count against me when i was in school.  i would have had damn near perfect grades.

[NGTM-1R]

grades aren't necessarily reflective of the teaching.

Don't perpetuate the cycle.

[Klaustrophobia]

excuse me? 

if a student just sits in class and does no work and learns nothing because they don't care, that's the teacher's fault? 

[NGTM-1R]

if a student just sits in class and does no work and learns nothing because they don't care, that's the teacher's fault?

Considering it's the teacher's job, at least in part, to make them care, hell yes it is.

But also frankly the idea that you can't attribute success or failure of the teacher by studying grades is a bad one and desperately needs to be jettisoned, because it has strangled the ability to improve the profession.

[Polpolion]

A student determined not to do work and a teacher determined to make a difference will, most of the time, end with the student not doing any work to no fault of the teacher.

[Klaustrophobia]

my high school was about as perfect an example of this as possible.  there were two clearly different attitudes in the school.  those who cared and those who didn't.  our AP test scores were insanely high, but we also had pass rates for the unbelievably easy end-of-course tests in english and math at around 20-40%.  the same teachers taught both types.   

[NGTM-1R]

A student determined not to do work and a teacher determined to make a difference will, most of the time, end with the student not doing any work to no fault of the teacher.

Automatically assuming this is the case with all bad grades means that any attempt to apply meaningful science or metrics to teaching is useless. Indeed, automatically assuming it is the case for most or even a significant portion of bad grades does the same thing.

Teaching is a mystical art, subject to no laws or rules, unknowable!

That's not what you're suggesting, of course, but it seems to be Klaustrophobia's. It's also the line parroted by the local teacher's union, who then tell me that if we give them more money it will improve. Because that makes sense.

This assumption is bad science, bad for students, bad for the profession of teaching, and just generally bad.

[Polpolion]

Not once did I say you should automatically assume this is the case when you see a failing student. Not once did I even imply that.

[Klaustrophobia]

NGTM has started arguing the other side for them.  time to quit.

[karajorma]

if a student just sits in class and does no work and learns nothing because they don't care, that's the teacher's fault?

I'm going to say yes. And bear in mind that I am a teacher and I do have students who sit in class and do no work.

If my students are failing to engage then it's obvious that I'm somehow failing to get them to engage. I'm the one who determines how to teach the lesson, I'm the one who determines what is the best way to get the knowledge they need to have out of the book and into their heads. If the method I've chosen doesn't seem to be working it is my job to find a way that makes them want to get involved.

Now that's not to say that some students don't deliberately make it harder, or that I shouldn't feel that those who do try are more deserving of my limited time, but it is my job to find ways to get as many students as possible to take part in the class. I shouldn't be writing off those who can't self-motivate.

[NGTM-1R]

Not once did I say you should automatically assume this is the case when you see a failing student. Not once did I even imply that.

That's not what you're suggesting, of course,

I do seem to have covered that. (I have considerably more respect for you than you seem to credit.)

[Polpolion]

My apologies, I read the first few sentences and then just posted. Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that even with great teachers you'll always run into students that are just as lazy, and then some because it's easier to be lazy than a good teacher. Don't fire teachers because their students fail - that will always happen - fire them because they're bad teachers. Of course, failing students is usually the voice telling the principle that someone needs a performance review.

[jr2]

Let's not forget the many students also have R/L issues that may be hard for the teachers to diagnose, and, even if the problem does become suspected or known, may not be possible to fix, either partially, or completely.

One good example of what some of these issues could be, for example, the home and/or other environment(s) surrounding this.  Try giving two plugged nickels about studying with all of that going on.  (I know people that have been through it, and it shows... excellent students with excellent grades, then when the beforementioned is going on, grades plummet, when it (at least temporarily) stops or diminishes, grades rise somewhat again as life becomes a little bit more bearable.)

Other problems could include parents going through divorce / always arguing and creating stressful environment, personal relations with friends / boy/girlfriends going through rough times, etc, etc... there are many many dynamics, and teachers should be aware and try to help, as should parents, as should the students themselves.  However, too often, the problem gets mis-diagnosed (student must simply not care, because they are sullen and rebellious) and/or ignored (teacher has too many students to make more than a paltry effort at reaching out to students that are failing).  Parents can make the same mistakes as teachers, and of course, some teachers / parents can be part of the problem.

And, let's not forget, yes, there are those people who are just spoiled, rotten apples... the fix for that would be to try and convince/inspire them to make something more out of themselves.  Might or might not be possible, but must at least be tried.

It would really help if parents/teachers/principles had access (I'm not sure, do they) to a complete record of any student's quarterly (maybe even monthly) performance in all grades, classes, and which teachers were teaching.  Then patterns might emerge (specific teacher?  specific subject?  specific timeframe across the board?  what were the trends before the change?)

[/endramble]

[deathfun]

excuse me? 

if a student just sits in class and does no work and learns nothing because they don't care, that's the teacher's fault?

What about a student who does no work, but learns everything?

[jr2]

I used to love doing that in my CNA class and occasionally at my job school for the USMC (although, since that was computer-related, the quizzes had useless acronyms (PCMCIA People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms anyone?) and factoids thrown in, so you kind of had to study, even if you knew the material upside down and inside out... you still had to be able to spout the glories of the P4 processor such as when it came out, and it's wonderful 'new' features... I was part of one of the last classes before they redid the course, lol... but you can bet that future ALTIS grads will be stuck extolling the Core 2 Duo or some stupid BS.)

[Black Wolf]

What made the school choose the no zero-tolerance policy in the first place?

Do they have any statistical data that shows this policy works better than the more traditional policy?

I would point out that, while this was very likely not in the forefront of the minds of the people who suspended this teacher, they'll never get good statistical data about the policy if it's only patchily implemented.

Now, the question of whether the school has/had any intention of gathering this data (and, very importantly, acting on it as required) is an open question.

[Pred the Penguin]

excuse me? 

if a student just sits in class and does no work and learns nothing because they don't care, that's the teacher's fault?

What about a student who does no work, but learns everything?

There are some things you can't learn just by observing.