Author Topic: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.  (Read 8537 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Personally, I'd love to see Mossad post names and addresses of every "hacker" involved on a public website and do nothing else.

That would send the loudest message possible.

and yeah this would own, except that you are buying into this weird Mossad boogeyman brand: as I talked about last page, Israel's excellent and well-practiced cyberwarfare corps is, I believe, part of their military intelligence service, though I'm not exactly sure where. Flame?, Stuxnet, and Duqu were examples of their offensive capabilities, but they're also constantly dealing with more routine attacks.

This is part of why I think it's so ridiculous to swallow Anonymous' chest-thumping and get all oooh wooo Mossad: when you've already got a more serious local enemy text messaging your officers to tell them that Tel Aviv will soon be a sea of flame, a gang of badly organized cyber-graffiti artists whose bark has generally greatly exceeded their bite are hardly something to get worked up about.

I think you missed my point:  the Mossad needs to publicly post the list of names and addresses, not the security services gathering them.  Something along the lines of "The Mossad has become aware that the following individuals at the following locations have participated in cyberwarfare/security attacks on the citizens and State of Isarel" followed by the names, addresses, and absolutely nothing else.  They don't need to do a damn thing other than that - that service posting that information should be a significant enough psychological threat (give the originating agency).

I agree that, in general, Anonymous is a minor irritation at worst and not a credible threat to anything, but the clowns are starting to get a little too big for their britches and frankly need to be taught that nothing is truly anonymous.  The majority of these script-kiddies have no idea what some of the pre-eminent cybersecurity/warfare agencies are actually capable of.

I always found it interesting that, in protest to a perceived 'invisible world order of self-proclaimed 'Elites' who want to dictate to the rest of the world what they can and cannot do by using technology to attempt to control people', Anonymous remain ignorant to the fact that they themselves are pretty much becoming precisely the thing they claim to be fighting.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
This thread gets more and more baffling - that vandalized OpIsrael website was linked in the articles Sandwich posted right in the OP, suggesting he didn't even read them  :blah:

You mean the link to a constantly updating list of Google News results?

This thread gets more and more baffling - that vandalized OpIsrael website was linked in the articles Sandwich posted right in the OP, suggesting he didn't even read them  :blah:

Indeed, what BloodEagle said:

You mean the link to a constantly updating list of Google News results?

But also, when I originally posted the thread, the coordination site for these attacks hadn't been counter-hacked by Israeli hackers (as far as I'm aware).

The news article I referenced - and the vandalism it's about - was there when you posted this thread; I even thought about posting a screenshot of it but didn't want to triple post. IIRC (I may be wrong about the exact order) it was actually linked and discussed in the first article on the feed when you linked it.

You just didn't read what you posted.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 06:24:52 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
You just didn't read what you posted.

Indeed, I didn't read the never-ending stream of articles about the topic that Google News provided me. Additionally, Google News shows different people different articles, even when they're viewing the same link - regional prioritization, personalization, etc.

In any case, good to know that Anonymous lost control of their own domain even longer than I had thought. :p
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Which just further proves that you really don't need Mossad to deal with an 'organization' that can barely compete with amateurs.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Uhm, okay, so? What's your point? Anonymous are even dumber than I was implying? I can't tell if you're arguing with me or not, but it seems like we're both agreeing with each other... :p
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
My point is the same thing it's been the entire thread: you badly misunderstood both the capabilities of Anonymous (buying into their PR, which is their biggest asset) and how your own country deals with cyberwarfare. In particular I am mocking, as in highlighting the humor inherent in the notion, your initial supposition that nefarious Anonymous hackers would be tracked down and killed by Mossad.

People get spooked by Anonymous all over the world, but in Israel in particular cyberwarfare is already an everyday reality, and the media hype over this effective non-event just speaks to how badly people misunderstand both Israel's capabilities and and Anonymous' lack thereof.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
In particular I am mocking, as in highlighting the humor inherent in the notion, your initial supposition that nefarious Anonymous hackers would be tracked down and killed by Mossad.

I could just as easily post something along the lines of, "Hezbollah/Hamas/Palestinians/Iranians/Egyptians/Syrians/Lebanese/[insert name of group unfriendly to Israel here] throws stones at IDF; forgets Israel's nuclear arsenal". Setting aside the whole do-we/don't-we have nukes for the time being, there's a somewhat obvious disconnect between the concept of somebody throwing stones and Israel responding with nukes, and yet there would still be a valid point in there: don't bite off more than you can chew.

Drawing the analogy back to this thread's topic, we suddenly realize that there's not an expectation that a Mossad hit squad will be bashing down any Anonymous doors anytime soon. Rather, there's a warning not to pick a fight you can't expect to win.

I'm sorry the gallows humor escaped you. I'll try to be clearer next time I think about going for a subtle jab at the ridiculousness of something.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Hilarious to see Battuta taking a metaphor literally. I would wrongly guess he would be the last one to fall for that kind of thing.

 
Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
In particular I am mocking, as in highlighting the humor inherent in the notion, your initial supposition that nefarious Anonymous hackers would be tracked down and killed by Mossad.

I could just as easily post something along the lines of, "Hezbollah/Hamas/Palestinians/Iranians/Egyptians/Syrians/Lebanese/[insert name of group unfriendly to Israel here] throws stones at IDF; forgets Israel's nuclear arsenal". Setting aside the whole do-we/don't-we have nukes for the time being, there's a somewhat obvious disconnect between the concept of somebody throwing stones and Israel responding with nukes, and yet there would still be a valid point in there: don't bite off more than you can chew.

Drawing the analogy back to this thread's topic, we suddenly realize that there's not an expectation that a Mossad hit squad will be bashing down any Anonymous doors anytime soon. Rather, there's a warning not to pick a fight you can't expect to win.

I'm sorry the gallows humor escaped you. I'll try to be clearer next time I think about going for a subtle jab at the ridiculousness of something.

I wouldn't call mentioning the mossad a subtle jab.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Hilarious to see Battuta taking a metaphor literally. I would wrongly guess he would be the last one to fall for that kind of thing.

I think nationalist chest-thumping and ~CYBERPOCALYPSE~ paranoia are both lovely targets for jibes, thank  you  :P Sandwich is scrambling to reframe his motives but I think the fundamental ridiculousness of his original point's been made clear.

Even if you take it as a metaphor it's a dreadful one. Anonymous has little to nothing to fear from the Mossad and for Israel this isn't the day they get wiped off the Internet, it's just Tuesday. Nukes aren't a deterrent to kids throwing stones at the IDF; kids throwing stones at the IDF is a problem that Israel actually has to deal with quite a bit, and one that it's learned to respond to (perhaps not as effectively as it might). The alleged 'gallows humor' he's trying to have meant the whole time is still predicated on the same fundamental illusion that Israel handles these problems via some kind of massive deterrent capability people just 'need to remember'.

Post-9/11 we had an eruption of Don't Tread On Me bull**** in America and it seems to stem from the same psychological flaw: when people are threatened they want to believe they can hit back so hard they'll never be threatened again, that the bad guys will realize that they've 'bitten off more than they can chew'. In practice, the best tactics for handling this kind of asymmetric threat are pretty far from that intuitive kneejerk - which is a whole separate and fascinating topic.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:25:52 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
I actually think that the doxxing stuff that has been suggested in this thread is pretty aggressive, although ofc it pales in comparison to being sniped, etc.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
I haven't given serious thought to the effectiveness of doxing everyone involved (in some cases it might well lead to arrests) but it would be hilarious and that counts for a lot.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Well, it could prove to be amazingly aggressive towards those people's lives (at least lose their jobs, or much much worse), however I'll grant you that doing so in a "hilarious" comical type of "action", even if harmful, would be fitting against "Anonymous". The trolls being trolled, the hackers being hacked, etc.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Sandwich is scrambling to reframe his motives...


The alleged 'gallows humor' he's trying to have meant the whole time...

Let me be clear for you. My entire original post could be replaced with "...you're kidding, right?". That was the tone of the tongue-in-cheek love letter from the "Mossad" to "Anonymous". I'm apologize that I wasn't clearer and that it caused you confusion.

It's insightful to see how your choice of words effortlessly rewrites history, as it were. "Sandwich is scrambling to...", "The alleged 'gallows humor' he's trying to have meant the whole time..." - both phrasings assume that your intricate understanding of the situation is inherently superior to your subjects' understanding (me), and that merely by stating it, you can make it true. Reminds me of those people that love manipulating the media, distorting current events and rewriting history to suit their fancy. You should get into international politics.

Post-9/11 we had an eruption of Don't Tread On Me bull**** in America and it seems to stem from the same psychological flaw: when people are threatened they want to believe they can hit back so hard they'll never be threatened again, that the bad guys will realize that they've 'bitten off more than they can chew'. In practice, the best tactics for handling this kind of asymmetric threat are pretty far from that intuitive kneejerk - which is a whole separate and fascinating topic.

First of all, in the case of Osama bin-Laden vs the American People, yes, he did bit off more than he could chew, as I'm sure he could tell you if he were still alive. Your disregard for the basic rights of fellow human beings to live without fear is disturbing.

What's more, do some reading up on the Arab/Middle-Eastern mindset. Culturally, they respect strength. If someone backs down when threatened, it's seen as a sign of weakness to be taken advantage of. That works on the national level as well as the personal one. So when America got sucker-punched on 9/11, a response along the lines of gentle diplomacy would have been the worst possible response to choose. Thankfully, they acted instead of blustered, and the world is a bit safer because of those actions.

I, at least, appreciate it.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
Calm down. You presented yourself badly but I don't think you're a moron or a bad person; you just ****ed up a post on the internet.

I don't think it's going to make a super interesting discussion to yell about how I literally support terrorism and disregard basic human rights - you know that's not true, and you're just lashing back at what you see as a personal attack. It's a tired exchange that won't teach anyone anything, though I can empathize with the fact that you've probably been in a lot of shouting matches w/r/t this highly charged and complicated topic. I'd go so far as to guess that you probably think I'm anti-intervention, anti-Israel, any of that - which isn't necessarily true; these are huge problems and they defy reduction to simple valences.

What is a really interesting discussion is what America (or Israel) should do when faced with threats like this. You've leapt to the assumption that I'm an advocate of gentle diplomacy (again, it reads like you've been in this discussion so many times you're just replying to what you usually see as opposition talking points). But I'm not in favor of that kind of policy at all, and I think you're making the same mistake you did when you leapt to assumptions about how Israel 'handles' cyberattack - drawing up a clear binary between 'violent direct retaliation' and 'pretty much do nothing'.

The response spectrum is actually a lot more complicated than that; we've touched on some aspects of it right here in this thread. How do you, as a state actor, retaliate against an asymmetric threat without accidentally feeding into the enemy's biggest advantages - their ability to paint themselves as victims and you as the aggressor, their ability to tap a groundswell of moral outrage? This is the question the IDF faces when people throw rocks at them, that America faced after 9/11, that Israeli cyberwar faces when they deal with a situation like this. It's the reason that bin Laden didn't simply bite off more than he could chew, the reason that bin Laden was actually the strategic victor for a lengthy period of time after 9/11 due to errors in American strategy (errors that were eventually overwhelmed by his own inability to lead his organization, that 'organization's' cannibalistic attacks on its own power base, and much more deftly measured American retaliation).

What do you think the proper response is? So far, yeah, I'd agree with your assertion that my understanding of the situation has been better - it's really complicated, and I don't think you've done a great job of acknowledging that complexity. But this has been a pretty casual discussion so far and I'm genuinely interested about your thoughts on the topic.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 05:20:56 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Sandwich

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
BTW, I haven't abandoned this discussion yet, I just got caught up in RL stuff. Your reply was too amusing to pass up responding to. :)
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

  

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Anonymous Plans Widespread Cyberattack on Israel; forgets about Mossad.
If you want to have the discussion you should go forward in good faith because you're interested in the topic.