[Sandwich]

Like I said, I'm out. I'm sick of arguing with people who want to allow the circle of violence to continue because they want to characterise Hamas as crazy bastards who can't possibly be reasoned with. While the first part of that is pretty much true, I still refuse to accept the latter.

Here's some quotes from my parents' newsletter (with references), since they do a great job of outlining the situation regarding "reasoning" with Hamas:

Last April, Israel stopped all peace negotiations when Abbas and the Palestinian Authority [PA] formed a 'unity government' with Hamas. When an Israeli official said that Hamas is a world-recognized "terrorist organization that calls for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews," Abbas replied, "Hamas is an inseparable part of the Palestinian nation [sic]." Now what does that say about that 'nation'? ("PM: Abbas must choose between Hamas & Israel," Israel Hayom , 23 Apr. 2014)

Here are excerpts from Hamas' Charter: "Israel will exist… until Islam obliterates it" (Preamble); "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight Jews [not just Israelis or Zionists] and kill them" (Art. 7); "There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad [holy war]" (Art. 13).

...

Denis MacEoin says, "Hamas does not care a fig for Western initiatives based on secular theories of international law." Hamas only honors Islam's sharia law of jihad, which their charter says is "the only solution to the Palestinian problem." So how will a piece of paper, "made by mere men, and not by Allah, [be able] to stop them?" Only total defeat will prevent renewed hostilities in the future. ("There Must Not Be a Ceasefire," D. MacEoin, Gatestone Institute, 25 July 2014)

...

David Weinberg notes that, "Israeli terrorists are few and far between…" Yet a list of Islamic terrorists is huge and growing, as is a list of their victims. "Israeli terrorists are denounced roundly and emphatically by Israeli society, caught quickly, jailed fast." They are not seen as heroes, but Muslim "terrorists are celebrated widely by [their] society, feted by [its] leadership, sheltered… from justice, and rewarded generously."

Israeli society "expressed deep shame…and spoke out …in fierce denunciation" of the revenge-killing. But among Palestinian Muslims there was "triumphant jubilation and defiance" for the triple murder.

Weinberg ends, saying "you judge a society not by the crimes of a few," but by how "that society deals with its criminals and whom it celebrates as heroes. In such a tally, there is no moral symmetry whatsoever between Israeli and Palestinian societies." ("No moral symmetry," D. M. Weinberg, Israel Hayom Op-ed, 7 July 2014)

Oh, and lest anyone think that just because Hamas is overtly bad, the Palestinians must be "good":

Mark Silverberg, the foreign policy analyst at Ariel University's Policy Research Center, said, "The mother of…one of the accused kidnapper/murderers of the Israeli teens, told Israel's Channel 10 news: "If he did the kidnapping, I'll be proud of him until my final day. I raised my children on the knees of the [Islamic] religion… and their goal is to bring the victory of Islam"." This mindset permeates Palestinian Muslim society.

Since Oslo, Abbas and the PA "have encouraged a…culture that glorifies terror and terrorists, indoctrinates Palestinians through a culture of hatred and violence against Israel and Jews," calling them scum, and seeking "their annihilation." The Hamas Charter sees the murder of all Jews as necessary.

This message is spread through schools, the media, in mosques and in summer camps. Not only are they taught that "Jews have no right to live," they are also "encouraged to murder them…"

Almost 2,000 Israelis have been slaughtered in "terror attacks since the PA was established. Hostage taking, a recognized war crime" elsewhere, they see as a major victory, which is why many Palestinian Muslims celebrated the kidnapping and murder of the three Jewish teens.

"According to the 2003 US Senate Committee Hearing on Palestinian Education," almost 75% of the PA's children "yearn to die as martyrs. Until this culture of death-worship has been expunged …Palestinian statehood must never be granted." ("Palestinian Statehood Revisited," M. Silverberg, Arutz 7 Op-ed, 6 July 2014)

Nadav Shragai says the innocents killed in Gaza were "sentenced to death by Hamas, which turned them into human flak jackets." Their culture of death, "is not merely a theocratic-religious and ideological matter." In 2008, Hamas' Interior Minister said death for them "has become an industry…" They have "created a human shield of women, children, elderly and jihadists to confront…the Zionist enemy…"("Civilian blood, on Hamas' hands," N. Shragai, Israel Hayom Op-ed , 23 July 2104)

...

Dror Eydar said that because of devastation caused by the IDF in Gaza, Hamas TV hosted an 'expert', who reminded the Gazans, "It was not long ago you cried out: "Death for the sake of Allah is our most exalted desire" (part of the Muslim Brotherhood creed). Well, you got the death you wished for." Every Muslim mother must "nurse her children with hatred for the sons of Zion… We will plant that seed in [our children's] souls, to raise a generation that will remove them from the earth." Eydar: ""Nice, isn't it?""

Islamic doctrine teaches that martyrs are rewarded in paradise, and the Hamas charter states, "There is no compromise possible with the enemies of Allah." Believing this, they freely use their people as human shields. Yet human rights groups and the media still blame the Jews when Gazans die.

They want us "to recognize, respect, engage in dialogue, so on and so forth [with terrorists], but these are just flaccid slogans that mirror the weakness of the liberal elite that dominated the West in the 1930s. They scorn us and our blind rationalism. Contrary to the West's delusion, Israel is not alone in its battle against radical Islam. It is a war facing the entire free world." ("Culture of death," D. Eydar, Israel Hayom Op-ed, 6 Aug. 2014)

As I've been saying, this culture of hatred and death-worship must stop for there to be any meaningful advances towards a mutual peace:

M. Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas' founder, Sheikh H. Yousef, told CNN, "Hamas does not care about the lives of Palestinians… They don't care about their own lives. They consider dying for the sake of their ideology as a way of worship."

Youssef, now a Christian, sees "no way for Israel to reach any kind of compromise with Hamas, whose very charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and whose leaders" repeatedly call for "the extermination of the Jewish people." ("Son of Hamas Founder: They Consider Dying as a Form of Worship," Arutz 7 , 30 July 2014)

[Phantom Hoover]

oh look sandwich thinks the only solution is to eradicate palestinian culture, what a surprise

[Sandwich]

oh look sandwich thinks the only solution is to eradicate palestinian culture, what a surprise

Yes, that's exactly what I said. "Eradicate Palestinian Culture™" - Sandwich, 15th of August, 2014.

/sarcasm (for those of you with broken sarcasm detectors)

I did not say anything of the sort. I said "this culture of hatred and death-worship must stop".

Also, Phantom Hoover, if you continue twisting people's words like that, I'll ban your ass. You've been warned.

[Phantom Hoover]

So I guess those parts of the site policy about admins recusing themselves from incidents they are personally involved in doesn't apply to you, then?

[Sandwich]

Wasn't part of the policy when I joined, but you're right, I should recuse myself from banning you; I'll have another admin do it if you continue to twist words around. Happy now?

Back to the topic at hand: go ahead and try to defend a culture of hatred, incitement, and death-worship. I'll get my popcorn.

[Zacam]

Phantom Hoover: Do yourself a significant favor right now of avoiding this conversation unless and until you have anything of actual worth or intelligence to contribute to it. This now makes for multiple posts in this subject alone that has caused a problem or been reported.

And given that Sandwich is probably the more level headed Administrators and given the absolutely appalling manner in which you decided to construct his response as being, given that he simply WARNED YOU that you would be banned if you continued isn't a problem. The only act of recusement in this circumstance that I can see that would have been required, the only conflict of interest that COULD have happened is if he had just banned you himself WITHOUT said warning.

And you know what? Forget what I said in the beginning here. You are now GETTING some time off to think things over and for this conversation to resume being civilized especially following that lovely and precisely crafted "Oh, but that'd be abuse" line you decided to take.

[Ulala]

I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the history of the PA/Hamas, but I'm having a hard time understanding why the PA would form a "unity government" with Hamas. What does Hamas bring to the table that the PA wants/needs? If Palestinians want to be recognized as a legitimate nation, allying with a terrorist organization isn't exactly the best way to legitimize your cause. 

[swashmebuckle]

If the PA gets cozy with Israel while Gaza suffers, they won't be in power for long. That would be like the ultimate family betrayal, made even more inexcusable because the West Bank is being actively colonized. It would literally be seen as dealing with the devil. They're in a pretty difficult position.

[karajorma]

Which is why I get very annoyed with people basically telling the PA that they should take a self-destructive action in order to get a peace which won't last.


I'll say it one last time. Peace will come only if Israel offers its own version of the Downing Street Declaration first. That's the only thing that will put Hamas and the PA in a position where they can even realistically talk about negotiations with Israel without facing a massive backlash.

Everyone who expects peace to come from the Palestinian side is deluding themselves.

David Weinberg notes that, "Israeli terrorists are few and far between…" Yet a list of Islamic terrorists is huge and growing, as is a list of their victims. "Israeli terrorists are denounced roundly and emphatically by Israeli society, caught quickly, jailed fast."

Except for the ones you elected to the highest office of your country, they don't count, right?

Simple fact is that Israel doesn't need terrorists to do the job of grinding the Palestinians down. They have an army that is doing a very good job of that. You want to tell me that the army is denounced roundly for their excesses?

Where were the widespread protests against Operation Brother's Keeper? Or against this war? Or against settlements in the occupied territories?

The culture of hatred is just as prevalent on the Israeli side. This thread already has a link to an article about what happens to you if you are against the war. The Israeli side is much more civilised about what they want, not the death of all the Palestinians, just the continued grinding down of their will in order to continue the theft of their land.

If you want peace, this belief that Israel has a God-given right to the Palestinian land also needs to die.

[Spoon]

Everyone who expects peace to come from the Palestinian side is deluding themselves.

Yeah pretty much. Everything the palestinians say and do is the direct opposite of wanting peace. You gotta be pretty deluded to think that peace will ever come from a culture that raises their kids to hate the jew and the Israelian state.

You also gotta be completely deluded to think that the Israeli people should protest against the army that is keeping them safe from a terrorist organization that is using their own civilians as human shields.

And offering their own version of the Downing Street Declaration will do jack**** because the palestinians have proven to be 100% completely untrustworthy in pretty much every dealing they've had with Israel.

[karajorma]

Ummmm no. As I've pointed out before, Israel has proved pretty untrustworthy when dealing with the Palestinians too.

[Grizzly]

did they even honour the last peace agreement (the one from 2012)?

[MP-Ryan]

did they even honour the last peace agreement (the one from 2012)?

Did Hamas?

Finger-pointing gets the process nowhere.  A cessation of current hostilities and a progressive negotiation from that point does make progress.