[Gank]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=1473
US is walking a very fine line in Karbala

[DeepSpace9er]

Theres now mass graves in fallujah, torture in Abu Gharib, and setting dogs on people is torture, and at least one case of rape caught on camera. Remeber Saddam had decades to commit his atrocitys, US is just beginning.

The only mass graves in fallujah is the US defending itself from who..... terrorists. There is a mass grave in New York City too.. thats the US's fault too right? Saddam gassed his own people the Kurds. It took 7 seconds for each person to die and im sure they died in groups. It would be more correct to say that he committed attrocities for decades. Abu Gharib is a scandal at best not an attrocity. You only think its an attrocity because the mainstream media has been hyping it to cover up the real attrocities the terrorists are committing.


Historically and today, Arab women have NO RIGHTS. They are completely subjected to men.

Which the US destroyed

Happened to Berlin too during WWII so, according to you general, it would be smarter to sustain more casualties to preserve the infrastructure.

Elections? You havent given them that freedom, The IGC was handpicked by the US and so will be the body which take soverignty on june 30th, though the US will remain in full control

First free elections scheduled for early 2005. They would never be on the map if Saddam were in power.

Which the US destroyed

The Republican Guard was Saddam's military. He used it as his police force and army. A good portion of it was surrendured by its commanders during the invasion and eventually disipatted. You obviously know nothing about warfare if you think that invading a country isnt going to destroy its army.

Spoken by someone from a country which has never been occupied by anyone. A country built on land taken from the natives who were slaughtered or stuck on reservations. People like you should spend a month in Abu Gharib with a hood on your head and some hillbilly chick sticking a broomstick up your arse repeatedly.

Im loking at this objectively. Let me give you some examples of true brutality in occupation:

Ukraine after WWII: estimated 30 million people killed by Stalin for not accepting communism.

East Germany after WWII: reconstruction never took place, vitually no political or personal freedom.

Now lets look at the way other countries handle POW's and prisoners:

Vietnam during war: North Vietnamese STARVED American POWs and made them live without any clothes.

Political Prisoners of Cuba: Life in prison without parole, little food, bodily torture, firing squads etc.

Russian prisoners: Siberian labor camps, little food, freezing temperatures, gas chambers etc.

German concentration camp: gas chambers, starvation huts, lethal injections, little food, filth, disease, little clothing, brutal discipline.

Seems to me like this US mistreatment of prisoners is nothing compared to even the first example I gave.

People like you want the US to loose. You want Iraq to be a mess, you want **** to look like an incompetent fool and the UN and EU to be the solution to the worlds problems. You hate everything good America stands for, you love to blame the worlds problems on America, especially when a conservative president is running the show. Its pretty obvious the way you constantly bash everything the US does and make it sound like you actually WANT Saddam Hussein to be in power still and all the evil that he stood for to be reinstated.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


The only mass graves in fallujah is the US defending itself from who..... terrorists. There is a mass grave in New York City too.. thats the US's fault too right? Saddam gassed his own people the Kurds. It took 7 seconds for each person to die and im sure they died in groups. It would be more correct to say that he committed attrocities for decades. Abu Gharib is a scandal at best not an attrocity. You only think its an attrocity because the mainstream media has been hyping it to cover up the real attrocities the terrorists are committing.

Insurgents is the word you're looking for. You see, you can't just brand someone a terrorist becuase they attack the US. Attacking an invading force is a valid form of self-defense, and is therefor not terrorism.

Abu Ghraib is the tamest of what is happening in US prisons. Don't assume that just because there are no photos, it ain't happeneing. As I've said before, you believe every story told by Saddam's prisoners about rape rooms and torture, but you refuse to believe those very same people when they state that the US is torturing detainees.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


Historically and today, Arab women have NO RIGHTS. They are completely subjected to men.

Iraq was secular. Sorry, but thats a historical fact.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


Happened to Berlin too during WWII so, according to you general, it would be smarter to sustain more casualties to preserve the infrastructure.

True, but you can not congratulate the US for rebuilding what it destroyed in the first place.
 

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


First free elections scheduled for early 2005. They would never be on the map if Saddam were in power.  

I'm wondering how free will the elections be? With a US military presence, the "interim" government being made by a crew hand-picked by the US, and several US state media outlets, Iraq 2005 has every probability of being Venezuela 2001.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


The Republican Guard was Saddam's military. He used it as his police force and army. A good portion of it was surrendured by its commanders during the invasion and eventually disipatted. You obviously know nothing about warfare if you think that invading a country isnt going to destroy its army.

Again, why should they be thanked for rebuilding what they destroyed in the first place? Not to mention that the real butchers behind Saddam's reign are being put back in to places of power within the military and police.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


Im loking at this objectively. Let me give you some examples of true brutality in occupation:

Ukraine after WWII: estimated 30 million people killed by Stalin for not accepting communism.

East Germany after WWII: reconstruction never took place, vitually no political or personal freedom.

Now lets look at the way other countries handle POW's and prisoners:

Vietnam during war: North Vietnamese STARVED American POWs and made them live without any clothes.

Political Prisoners of Cuba: Life in prison without parole, little food, bodily torture, firing squads etc.

Russian prisoners: Siberian labor camps, little food, freezing temperatures, gas chambers etc.

German concentration camp: gas chambers, starvation huts, lethal injections, little food, filth, disease, little clothing, brutal discipline.

Seems to me like this US mistreatment of prisoners is nothing compared to even the first example I gave.

Three of the above examples took place under the USSR, one in Cuba and one under the Nazis. I'm not going to count Vietnam because the US commited just as many attrocities as the VC and NVA. Read up on the Phoenix Program.

And still, being better than the worst regimes in history is easy. Should we get down on and our hands and knees and thank the US for being better than Stalin? No. They must be judged according to the Geneva Convention and international law.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
People like you want the US to loose. You want Iraq to be a mess, you want **** to look like an incompetent fool and the UN and EU to be the solution to the worlds problems. You hate everything good America stands for, you love to blame the worlds problems on America, especially when a conservative president is running the show. Its pretty obvious the way you constantly bash everything the US does and make it sound like you actually WANT Saddam Hussein to be in power still and all the evil that he stood for to be reinstated.

If people find lots of faults, thats means there ARE lots of faults. If there are 100 things wrong with my car, I will not stop working until all of them are fixed. Not 52, not 73, all of them. I can criticize without being called anti-American, just like I can criticize Israel without being anti-Semetic.

[Gank]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
The only mass graves in fallujah is the US defending itself from who..... terrorists. There is a mass grave in New York City too.. thats the US's fault too right? Saddam gassed his own people the Kurds. It took 7 seconds for each person to die and im sure they died in groups. It would be more correct to say that he committed attrocities for decades. Abu Gharib is a scandal at best not an attrocity. You only think its an attrocity because the mainstream media has been hyping it to cover up the real attrocities the terrorists are committing.

The US surrounded and invaded Fallujah because four of its mercenarys were killed and killed 600+, thats not defending itself. Invading Iraq wasn't defending itself, all its claims that Iraq was a threat have been proven to be bull****.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Historically and today, Arab women have NO RIGHTS. They are completely subjected to men.

Stereotyping borne out of Bigotry. Iraqi women went to school like they do in most arab countrys, you're talking out of your arse
 

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Happened to Berlin too during WWII so, according to you general, it would be smarter to sustain more casualties to preserve the infrastructure.

What?, wtf sort of ****e are you talking? US blew up the infrastructure, they deserve no accolades for rebuilding it, and I suggest you go check on whats actually been done before you continue the discuaaion

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
First free elections scheduled for early 2005. They would never be on the map if Saddam were in power.

Blow your trumpet when its time to blow it, not long before it happens.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
The Republican Guard was Saddam's military. He used it as his police force and army. A good portion of it was surrendured by its commanders during the invasion and eventually disipatted. You obviously know nothing about warfare if you think that invading a country isnt going to destroy its army.

You dont have a ****ing clue do you, RG was a small part of Saddams army, the bulk of it was made of conscripts and Iraqss police force was a seperate entity. Go talk about something you know about.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Im loking at this objectively. Let me give you some examples of true brutality in occupation:
............
Seems to me like this US mistreatment of prisoners is nothing compared to even the first example I gave.

Its still brutality, just because theres people worse than you doesnt mean your good. Piss poor arguement, we're not as bad as such and such

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
People like you want the US to loose. You want Iraq to be a mess, you want **** to look like an incompetent fool and the UN and EU to be the solution to the worlds problems. You hate everything good America stands for, you love to blame the worlds problems on America, especially when a conservative president is running the show. Its pretty obvious the way you constantly bash everything the US does and make it sound like you actually WANT Saddam Hussein to be in power still and all the evil that he stood for to be reinstated.

I never mentioned the EU or UN and **** doesnt need me to make himself look like an incompetent fool, hes doing a damn good job himself. As are you.

[Flipside]

The problem is that, whatever motives caused it, this mess now exists.

I personally think that what America needs to do now is hand over to the UN, not because they are more powerful (cos they aren't), not because I think they are any 'better' at these things, but because they are far less likely to recieve the kind of hatred that will be readily aimed towards America by the Iraqis, also, because no nation trusts any other nation as far as they could throw them, it's difficult for things like Al Ghraib to happen, simply because everyone is watching everyone else like bloody hawks I'll admit the UN have their faults, and plenty of them, but I think the main problem here is the fact that a country that Iraqis have been told to fear and mistrust has invaded.

I would consider that action by America a far braver thing to do than any attack on rebel hideouts or daring rescue mission. Simply because I believe it would be the 'right' thing to do, which isn't always the most pleasant or satisfying, or indeed pride fulfilling thing to do.

But then, there is the matter of all that oil.......

[DeepSpace9er]

If things were to turn out right, turning it over to the UN is the worst mistake you could ever make. The UN is incompetent. The only way they justify their existence is US funding. They left a mess that still exists in Bosnia which is a decade old, they allowed the slaughted of over 1.5 million Rwandans. They pass proposals like Kyoto which would incapacitate the US economy. And by the way, the US already went to the UN before this war started, and the UN didnt want to do the job. Well actually, France Germany, Russia, and China didnt want to do the job because they were all getting kickbacks from Saddam as well as the food for oil scam that they were profiting from. IMO, the US should cut all funding to the UN and watch them, in all their powerlessness shrivel up and die like the League of Nations.

[Rictor]

a) The UN's job IS NOT to just put a stamp of approval on whatever the US says. They are a independent entity, and their job is to PREVENT war, not start it. They did their job, but unfortunately were unable to prevent war despite this fact.

b) The UN are not nearly as competent as people believe. You are right on this count, the "peacekeepers" couldn't find their asshole with both hands.

c) You're right, America should withdraw from the UN. And watch as they become World Enemy #1, a position which they already occupy. The UN was created to serve the interests of peace. If it has erred in the past, that is because it has forgoten this and has acted as a yes-man to the US.

[Flipside]

As I stated in my post though, I'm saying saying they are 'better' in some way, though, I must admit, I seriously doubt they are any 'worse' either, all countries have their corrupt officials I am talking about the hatred of Americans that has been preached to the Iraqi people since they were young. The problem is that America is doing exactly what Saddams propoganda machine would, in my opinion, say they would, and no doubt that propoganda is still reaching them through various sources.
THAT is why they need to take stock of the situation, you don't stay in power for years when you behave like Saddam without being one intelligent s.o.b.

1) He never doubted for one millisecond he would lose the war.
2) The WMD's if they existed are long long gone. You can blame UN inspections if you like, but I think they were gone probably a week or two after **** made his comments about Iraq needing a change of leadership.
3) The resistance was firmly established before the war ever started, they would be instructed to occupy holy buildings, thus making desecrations of shrines a self-fulfilling prophecy.
4) Saddam will have told his people that the Americans are there to take the Oil and that any promises they make will be lies. One of the first Priorities would be to stabilise Oil supply, Saddam knew that, another self fulfilling prophecy.
5) Sadly, the whole torture thing was almost like a free gift

That's why I suggested the UN, because Saddam won't have planned for America willingly taking a step back from confrontation.

edit : The other reason I suggested the UN is because I am damned if I can think of any other force on the planet other than the Americans that are large enough to be able to.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


Seems to me like this US mistreatment of prisoners is nothing compared to even the first example I gave.

You don't seem to get it. ANY mistreatment of prisoners by American soldiers is wrong. Its worse than all the other things you mentioned. It doesn't matter how many people got killed in Russia, nor does it matter how many people lost their rights in East Berlin.

All that matters is that OUR people shat upon OUR principles. OUR people pissed on the values that WE hold sacred.

Who the **** cares what iraqis or russians or cubans do? Its not relevant. People like to pull in other horrible events in history and compare them to what our troops did, and somehow act like that makes it somehow acceptable. That's called a strawman argument: pulling in irrelevancies, trashing them, and acting like you've proved your point.

If we can't claim to be "exporting democracy" and then follow despotic practices. Its a direct contradiction of what we say we stand for and what we claim to believe.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
If things were to turn out right, turning it over to the UN is the worst mistake you could ever make. The UN is incompetent. The only way they justify their existence is US funding. ...  IMO, the US should cut all funding to the UN and watch them, in all their powerlessness shrivel up and die like the League of Nations.

You say that like the US isn't several years behind on paying it UN dues. We're already NOT fnding the UN.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Flipside
5) Sadly, the whole torture thing was almost like a free gift  

Kind of like Clinton's knobber in the oval office for the Republican party.  Dammitall.

[Rictor]

There is a slight difference. One event involved thousands of innocents being tortured, the other involved a blowjob. Comparing the two is like comparing WW2 with getting a bad haircut.

[vyper]

edit; ignore, I was tired and irritated with stress from work.

[vyper]

ditto

[Gank]

edit: watched it a few more times and I'm not so sure.