Author Topic: its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment  (Read 3335 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
I don't want to know
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Offline Rictor

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
that can be arranged....

Look, if there's a war on in Vietnam, and your country is sending people over there as fast as possible, it takes about 2 brain cells to figure out that its a complete ****storm, so the chances are that you're not going to be sitting by a pool in Saigon sipping a margarita.

Furthermore, the nature of America activities in 'Nam (terror campaigns against civilians , Phoenix and all that) was well know at this time, particularly to someone with a high degree of education like Kerry.

...how is it that every time anyone talks about Kerry, the conversation always drifts to Vietnam. Yes, its one of the reasons why I dislike him, but his actual, current policies far, far outweigh that. If he looked like he had some promising policies and ideas to implement, instead of being Bush-lite, I could look past 'Nam. But alas, by the second post it was already derailed...

 

Offline Kazan

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
once again rictor: bull****

and whether or not you like is policies is irrelevant - your a politically naive ultra-socialist who denies that atrocities happened in his country of birth
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Offline Rictor

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
you're absolutely right. I ought to be hanged for my treacherous, murderous, socialist ways, and you ought to hang right beside me for acting like a 3 year old: once your arguement falls apart, throwing a tantrum and resorting to name calling.

At least I have a point to make. You obviously have none, or you would made it by now. Jumping up and down and screaming bull**** isn't gonna convince anyone buddy :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

also, please try to be more creative in your insults. You've used that ultra-socialist thing like the past three times. How about be switch to "anti-semetic terrorist appeaser" for a while, just for a change of pace your understand.

 

Offline Janos

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
once again rictor: bull****

and whether or not you like is policies is irrelevant - your a politically naive ultra-socialist who denies that atrocities happened in his country of birth


yeah that has a lot to do with this :)
lol wtf

 

Offline Kazan

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
if i was jumping up and down and throwing a tantrum you'd know it -- i don't waste my breath trying to correct you anymore because you have a skull about as thick as a lead reactor plate

You are a biased individual who doesn't even make an attempt to be nonbiased -- you are the ultra-left, just like bush is the ultra-right

BTW "Antisemetic terrorist appeaser" isn't a true statement about you, and hence why i haven't used it.  I pointed out that "you're a political naive utlra-socialist who denies that atrocities happened in his country of birth" because it's TRUE (as illistrated by your own statements throughout the past)

You are an unreliable source at best - but you are infact a idealogue with an agenda
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Offline Rictor

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
"idealogue with an agenda"

...now that I like. It has such a great ring to it, don't you think? I appreciate you taking the time to craft such a masterful insult, just for me.

But please, if you have nothing to say regarding the topic that is being discussed, don't say anything. If you want to make a "Rictor is a naive ultra-socialist anti-America idealogue with an agenda, oh and also he eats babies" thread, you're welcome to it and more power to ya (though I don't think that will all fit in the title). However, don't go around and stir **** up and get other people's threads locked.

...which reminds me, admins: don't lock this just yet. And through with Don Quixote, and apparently there are still a few people with the common curtesy to stay on topic, so..yeah...

 

Offline Kazan

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
you don't have the common curtesy and sophistication to be a non-biased source, and i'm pointing that out and you're crying "INSULT! INSULT!"

something cannot be an insult if it's true
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Offline Ford Prefect

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Quote
You are a biased individual who doesn't even make an attempt to be nonbiased.

What is there to an argument but a clash of biases? A debate isn't about looking at a situation objectively; it's about making a case for your point of view. If I didn't know any better I'd say you found that threatening.

Quote
something cannot be an insult if it's true

I beg to differ. True or false, it is an insult if it is phrased in a manner so as to be personally charged.

Now then, where were we? Ah, yes.

Rictor, I think maybe our points of view on Kerry are beyond resolution for the reasont that although, in some strategic way, you may view Kerry's regime as being more destructive, the fact of the matter is that many of us here in America are consumed with mortal terror when we think about how badly Bush could rape us with another four years, and we're convinced that Kerry shows much more promise of helping to stabilize the situation.

And look, maybe Kerry doesn't look all that different from Bush regarding imperialism, but there is a fundamental difference between them: Bush's administration is composed of religious fundamentalists whose wacko agenda is not much different from the likes of Al Quaeda, whereas Kerry's head is at least down on the secular Earth with the rest of us humans.
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Offline vyper

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
I finally realized that neoliberism has a true voice on this forum - Kazan, since he actually believes his arguments are just.

I'd only ever read about these people in Chomksy books - I feel like a trader landing on the shores on the new world and seeing Natives.
*loads rifle*
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Offline Rictor

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Ford: actually, Bush's administration, at least the people who call the shots, is made up of secular neocons (yes, I know that word is oversed by now, but its their proper title).

People within the administration like Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby and Richard Perle, as well as leading neocon intellectuals at large, such as Robert Kagan, Irving and William Kristol (father and son) and others. These people are the true source of Bush's agenda, at least when it comes to foreign policy, with a few straight up imperialists among their ranks (Rumsfeld, Condy and Big Dick).

Its important, very important, to know this group, to know their origins. Their origins are, amazingly enough, from the Left. The father of this movement was a guy called Leo Strauss, who was a politcal philosopher throught most of the 20th century. His views, and indeed the offical views of the neocon movement hold that benevolent world hegemony (by the US of course) if the only way to go, and that whatever needs to be done to achieve this is justifiable. Thats why the neocons have so much respect for Machiavelli, they're kindred spirits.

Now, they deifinitely came from the Left, and also from the Democratic party. They formed from the right-wing sectors of the Democrats, those who hold true that the US should maintain hegemony in order to export democracy and peace and all that bull****. Which is exactly the same thing Kerry & Co are saying. In fact, the neocons have more in common with Kerry, secular and rational, than with Bush and his Bible thumpers. Don't think they won't jump ship if Kerry wins. They are not aligned with a specific party but with a specific ideaology, and whoever can best serve their agenda, thats who they go with. Whats more, they have members both in Republican and Democratic circles. Clinton, Kerry, Lieberman, Clark, Albright and all of those guys, the brains in charge of the Democratic Party, and those who will be making the decisions if Kerry is elected, are within ideological spitting distance from the neocons. Keep in mind, that originally the neocons developed out of the same place Kerry is today: imperialist Democrats.

In some ways, rational and secular imperialists are much more dangerous, because they act rationally. Bush is a cowboy, so when he gets up on the podium, people can read him like a book. He's prone to relgious superstitions, and therefore will make mistakes. But Kerry and the "new Democrats"  will act with cold percision and manipulate the American public and the world much better than Bush could.

But anyway, you have no reason to believe me, just watch for yourself.

vyper: and the ironic thing is, he denies neoliberalism even exists

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Yes, I've read about Leo Strauss, and from what I've read, the way his writings should be interpreted is subject to great controversy.

Yes, the neocon intellectuals are secular in their thinking, but there is still an undeniable strain of religious zeal. Some of them, such as Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, probably don't believe most of what they like to have the public buy into. However, there are others, such as Bush himself and Ashcroft, (he's one of the worst in my estimation), who are genuine Christian fundamentalists, who honestly believe that their twisted brand of religious dogma must be integrated into political policy. One of them, I forget which one, is even a member of Opus Dei.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2004, 11:49:51 am by 2015 »
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Offline Kazan

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
vyper: neoliberal my ass
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Offline vyper

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Ooh, calm it big boy... all in good time.
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Offline Rictor

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Yes, I've read about Leo Strauss, and from what I've read, the way his writings should be interpreted is subject to great controversy.

Yes, the neocon intellectuals are secular in their thinking, but there is still an undeniable strain of religious zeal. Some of them, such as Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, probably don't believe most of what they like to have the public buy into. However, there are others, such as Bush himself and Ashcroft, (he's one of the worst in my estimation), who are genuine Christian fundamentalists, who honestly believe that their twisted brand of religious dogma must be integrated into political policy. One of them, I forget which one, is even a member of Opus Dei.


In my humble opinion, and keep in mind that it is just that, the neocons mesh better with the new Democrats than with the convervatives like Bush. Bush and Ashcroft specifically are deeply religious people, but neither is in charge of foreign policy. From what I know, the neocon movement doesn't really have a specific domestic agenda, other than a clampdown on freedoms in order to enable ther foreign policy. But Bush and the Republicans, in addition to being imperialists abroad, have a concrete agenda at home: anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti social programs, anti environment.

And thats why the neocons either way. Yes, Bush and Kerry do differ (though not susbtantially) in matters of domestic governance, but once you step outside the confines of the US, its the same thing. And thats what has enabled the neocons to have a loyalty towards both parties, since they don't really care who implements what policy at home, as long as they get their empire. And right now, thats both the major parties.

True, there are some old guard conservatives within Bush's administration, quite a few actually including Bush himself, but look at the people who make up the core of the foreign policy group: Perle, Feith, Libby, Rusmfeld (he's kind of iffy, more of a straight up hawk than anything else), Wolfowitz, Cheney. Bush and Ascroft couldn't be called neocons because they come from a different background. They are converstatives in the same sense that Reagan was.

Not that I'm saying what alot of people these days are saying, that US foreign policy has somehow been "hijacked" by the evil neocons. Don't get me wrong, it was no less murderous under Reagan, Nixon or Bush 41, but I think its important to note that since the neocon idealogy is focused so much on foreign policy, and since both parties are equal in that regard, this allows the same agenda to continue, regardless of who is in power. Kerry has already vowed to continue the occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan, continue to "war on terror", is actually OPPOSED to withdrawing troops from abroad, has vowed to continue the same murderous policies in South America and also to continue the reshaping of the Middle-East.

As I may have mentioned before, I can and do look at it from this perspective becuase I don't live within the US. Anyone who does will probably place greater worth than I do (that is to say, great than 0) on domestic issues like education, abortion and taxes. And thats understandable. But I'm looking at it through the eyes of the other 95% of the world that cares about how America behaves on the international stage. Bush and Kerry may be in the pockets of the same corporations, but at least there is a slight difference between them on those issues which affect Americans. And for some people, than small difference is enough to hold you nose and vote for Kerry.

oh dear, I'm ranting again. Sorry ;) ;)

BTW: I don't know about Opus Dei, but both Bush and Kerry belong to the Skull and Bones, and Bush is part of the Trilateral Commission.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Well, Skull and Bones is just a club for young guys who want another excuse to behave like young guys on campus, so I hardly care about that.

Okay, so I guess the conclusion we arrive at is that the world is America's ***** until the American people can learn to keep it in their pants when they hear the national anthem.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 
its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
*ahem* You deserve to die! Die, go to hell, and burn!

Quoted...

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Quoted? Ah, yes, that must be Dante Alighieri.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

  

Offline Flipside

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its awfully quiet around here so: Kerry on the environment
Don't you just love those constructive posts? ;)