Author Topic: An unholy alliance...  (Read 4632 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
slightly off key here, but on topic

if you beleive that a 'god' of some sort 'influenced' evolution, then you do not beleive in ID, as IIRC ID says that a 'creator' 'created' everything in the universe, exactly as it is (more or less) it says that there was no evolution, so there was nothing for 'god' to 'influence'.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
OK, let's try this again. Summary of the pertinent facts:
1. People, many of them who are more likely to be Creationist, are against evolution.
2. To fight against evolution, they revive the Watchmaker analogy, renaming it to Intelligent Design.
3. They attempt to pass Intelligent Design off as scientific theory.
4. The problem with the Watchmaker analogy is it is not supported in nature (see: the human eye)


Yep. I agree with all that

Quote
What I was trying to mention is that some people may have the belief that even though no higher power is required, it may have intervened anyway in the process orf evolution.

That's fine too. However this sentence has nothing to do with Intelligent Design. Intelligent Design states quite clearly that a higher power is needed and that this fact has been scientifically proved.

That's why I had such a problem with you saying that ID is a legitimate belief. It quite simply isn't. What you've typed in the second quote isn't ID.

if you beleive that a 'god' of some sort 'influenced' evolution, then you do not beleive in ID, as IIRC ID says that a 'creator' 'created' everything in the universe, exactly as it is (more or less) it says that there was no evolution, so there was nothing for 'god' to 'influence'.

Nope. Yet again that's something that has gotten lumped in with ID that isn't actually ID itself. Some parts of ID go beyond evolution and say that the Universe is too finely tuned to be accidental but even those still don't give any data on whether the universe appeared, whether there was a big bang etc.

It's easy to get confused about what ID is because as I've proved several times even the people who argue in favour of it rarely know themselves.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 06:58:00 pm by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
It's important to remember that trying to get a definition of ID is like trying to pin jelly to the wall.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Webster begs to disagree, karajorma:
Quote from: Webster's New Millennium Dictionary of English
Definition: a theory that nature and complex biological structures were designed by intelligent beings and were not created by chance; abbr. ID
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
Well, that definition renders itself incorrect but the second word, ID is not a theory. Other than that, it's a relatively sound definition.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Depends on what definition you use for theory. Again from Webster's:
Quote
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
2 and 6b fit that use of theory pretty well.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline Ace

  • Truth of Babel
  • 212
    • http://www.lordofrigel.com
Fools! All fools! Lamark was right!

*Wills a nuclear bomb appendage and nukes the thread*

MWUAHAHAHAHA!!!!!1111
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Webster begs to disagree, karajorma:
Quote from: Webster's New Millennium Dictionary of English
Definition: a theory that nature and complex biological structures were designed by intelligent beings and were not created by chance; abbr. ID

Notice that it doesn't actually explain anything, though.  Not the mechanism of design, nor the designer, nor how the designer came to be, or when, etc.  Indeed, if you examined it in reality with, say, 10 different proponents of ID I'd wager you'd get several difference answers on the keys questions such as 'is the fossil record correct' or 'does natural selection occur in any form' or even 'how old is the earth'.

Now, as a belief then it's ok; but whenever it's presented it's been as a theory, and specifically a scientific theory that is an equal contender for evolution.  This is because defining it as a belief would invalidate it as an option for science teaching in the US.   People who believe in it, would generally assert as their belief that God (insert applicable diety) created life and guided it, or somesuch, in which it would then be biblical creationism.  Those who would say it was aliens, would fall under another general definition; that of believers in perspermia.

(Additionally, the context for which ID has always been placed is as a scientific theory.  Given the subject it concerns, it really only can be described as one of two things; belief and theory.  If you use theory, that will corresponse to scientific theory or hypothesis, otherwise it clearly overlaps with belief).

Moreso, it appears to characterise evolution (being the alternative) as 'chance'; which is obviously wrong - mutation is a random event, natural and sexual selection of mutations to retain is not random.

NB: Merriam Webster online (www.m-w.com) doesn't have a definition for ID, nor does http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/ , where are you getting that from?

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Dictionary.com for ID, www.m-w.com for theory.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Dictionary.com for ID, www.m-w.com for theory.

Ah.  Presumably you've noted then that a lot of dictionaries don't have a definition for Intelligent Design, then.  Cambridge dictionary doesn't, can't search the Oxford one because they're stingy penny-pinching bastards and only allow subscribers to search.  Why not use the dictionary.com definition of theory, though?

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Fools! All fools! Lamark was right!

Actually he was. Kinda. cf. Epigenetics :)



Webster begs to disagree, karajorma:
Quote from: Webster's New Millennium Dictionary of English
Definition: a theory that nature and complex biological structures were designed by intelligent beings and were not created by chance; abbr. ID

How does that differ from my point? Notice the use of the word theory and not belief.

Anyway why are you going to Webster and Dictionary.com? Why not go straight to the source. Here's what the Discovery Institute (The creators of ID have to say).

Quote
Questions about Intelligent Design

1. What is the theory of intelligent design?

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

2. Is intelligent design theory incompatible with evolution?

It depends on what one means by the word "evolution." If one simply means "change over time," or even that living things are related by common ancestry, then there is no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and intelligent design theory. However, the dominant theory of evolution today is neo-Darwinism, which contends that evolution is driven by natural selection acting on random mutations, an unpredictable and purposeless process that "has no discernable direction or goal, including survival of a species." (NABT Statement on Teaching Evolution). It is this specific claim made by neo-Darwinism that intelligent design theory directly challenges.

3. Is intelligent design based on the Bible?

No. The intellectual roots of intelligent design theory are varied. Plato and Aristotle both articulated early versions of design theory, as did virtually all of the founders of modern science. Indeed, most scientists until the latter part of the nineteenth century accepted some form of intelligent design. The scientific community largely rejected design in the early twentieth century after neo-Darwinism claimed to be able to explain the emergence of biological complexity through the unintelligent process of natural selection acting on random mutations. During the past decade, however, new research and discoveries in such fields as physics, cosmology, biochemistry, genetics, and paleontology have caused a growing number of scientists and science theorists to question neo-Darwinism and propose design as the best explanation for the existence of specified complexity in the natural world.

4. Is intelligent design theory the same as creationism?

No. Intelligent design theory is simply an effort to empirically detect whether the "apparent design" in nature acknowledged by virtually all biologists is genuine design (the product of an intelligent cause) or is simply the product of an undirected process such as natural selection acting on random variations. Creationism is focused on defending a literal reading of the Genesis account, usually including the creation of the earth by the Biblical God a few thousand years ago. Unlike creationism, the scientific theory of intelligent design is agnostic regarding the source of design and has no commitment to defending Genesis, the Bible or any other sacred text. Honest critics of intelligent design acknowledge the difference between intelligent design and creationism. University of Wisconsin historian of science Ronald Numbers is critical of intelligent design, yet according to the Associated Press, he "agrees the creationist label is inaccurate when it comes to the ID [intelligent design] movement." Why, then, do some Darwinists keep trying to conflate intelligent design with creationism? According to Dr. Numbers, it is because they think such claims are "the easiest way to discredit intelligent design." In other words, the charge that intelligent design is "creationism" is a rhetorical strategy on the part of Darwinists who wish to delegitimize design theory without actually addressing the merits of its case.



Where in any of that does it mention ID being anything other than a theory? Even the creators of ID claim it's a scientific theory. They go out of their way to distance themselves from creationism even though many so called ID proponents are creationists too.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 05:20:06 am by karajorma »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
I'm amazed how utter rubbish the 2nd point in particular is; it deliberately misconstrues natural selection as being undirected (and thus to imply it is effectively random) when in reality it is directed in terms of the sequence consequences in evolution, but not the action (i.e. natural selection will - within certain boundaries such as sexual selection - result in the most effective mutations for survival being perpetuated, but it is not directed in the sense of some governing hand selecting mutations to preserve).  It's a classic tactic from ID, though; probably the biggest misportrayal of evolution that can be made is to portray it as an entirely random process (whereas Id effectively proposes every animal has been shaped by some designer to work perfectly), when in reality it is constrained by survival issues that create an implicit move to improve animals (ID would seek to portray the 'improvement' in animals such as eyesight as a singular directed action, rather than the consequence of mutations improving eyesight resulting in increased survival and thus greater reproduction and  offspring).

The use of 'purposeless' also belies the attempt to place some divine will into the process of life; there is no need for natural selection to have a 'purpose', it's simply the combined effects of an environment upon it's inhabitants.  Every lifeform has a basic purpose of surviving and reproducing; the 'purpose' of natural selection is to represent as a logical concept how the animals' physiological adaptations help or hinder it's survival and thus reproduction and spreading of genes.

Unpredictable is, of course, completely wrong.  Mutations are, IIRC, essentially unpredictable.  Natural selection is very predictable - the better adapted an organism is, the more likely it is to survive and reproduce.  If a bat can echolocate 100m further than another bat, then the first bat has a greater chance of finding food and thus living longer.  Very simple concept.

Plus it mentions ancient beliefs of the designed world, but neglects to mention that they came from theistic cultures (thus feeding into biblical creation myth) and before the discovery of the bulk of the fossil record (any fossils of dinosaurs, etc, would be regarded as ancient mythical monsters); moreso, whilst the concept of some designer of the world has existed since prehistoric times(before scientific exploration), there can be no doubt the movement to override established science (evolution) is funded by biblical fundamentalists (who provide most of the Discovery institutes funding... although, interestingly, a major funder is apparently Bill Gates - EDIT; apparently restricted to some other programme seperate from Id, though - something to do with regional transportation).

The use of 'Darwinists' is interesting, too; I presume the intention is to give the impression of scientists as being members of some 'cult' around Darwin, rather than acknowledge the decades of work upon evolutionary theory; to regress and ignore the work done since 1859 by focusing upon the Darwins original idea and not the myriad of supporting evidence and additional work.

But don't get me started on ID.......the blatant lies and agendas behind it infuriate me, it serves no purpose than to hold back human and cultural development in order to prepare it for someones personal theology, regardless of how devoid of merit that theology is.

NB: I note even their own definition does not define what 'features of the universe' were created, how they were created, who the creator was, how the creator came to be, etc.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
NB: I note even their own definition does not define what 'features of the universe' were created, how they were created, who the creator was, how the creator came to be, etc.

Which is one reason I'd love to see what an ID lesson plan would look like. You can't go on about irreducable complexity or specified complexity at a school kids level for more than a few minutes. Going on about the molecular machinary in flagellum is way above the level at which kids that age should be taught so I am left wondering what the teacher would be talking about after the first 10 minutes.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
NB: I note even their own definition does not define what 'features of the universe' were created, how they were created, who the creator was, how the creator came to be, etc.

Which is one reason I'd love to see what an ID lesson plan would look like. You can't go on about irreducable complexity or specified complexity at a school kids level for more than a few minutes. Going on about the molecular machinary in flagellum is way above the level at which kids that age should be taught so I am left wondering what the teacher would be talking about after the first 10 minutes.

Like this, i presume;
1/ we don't really understand evolution, so it must be flawed.  Here are some quotes and 'problems' we've made up.
2/ we do understand evolution, and it doesn't need god
3/ God is love, evolution  is evil

  

Offline Grey Wolf

Dictionary.com for ID, www.m-w.com for theory.

Ah.  Presumably you've noted then that a lot of dictionaries don't have a definition for Intelligent Design, then.  Cambridge dictionary doesn't, can't search the Oxford one because they're stingy penny-pinching bastards and only allow subscribers to search.  Why not use the dictionary.com definition of theory, though?
Didn't even look at it, honestly. I only resorted to using dictionary.com due to the lack of a definition for ID at M-W. I'm honestly not sure why I'm debating this, actually.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw