Author Topic: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.  (Read 4945 times)

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Offline Tyrian

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
On the subject of cameras on the buses and trains, I think that is acceptable.  Public transport is too large of an area, and the chance are high for some type of crime, such as a mugging. 

However, I definitely draw the line there.  The government has no right to put cameras in other locations.  I read the article at the beginning of the post, and I think it is a complete invasion of privacy to put cameras all over a city.  And it is certainly unethical, not to mention a huge breach of privacy, to put them in residential areas.  If you're that desperate to improve security, then you should be hiring more police.  They keep an area safe just by their presence, and they can't go sticking their nose anywhere they want, like a camera can.  If this ever happened in America, we'd probably have people with rifles shooting the cameras out of their mountings.  Not that that would be a bad thing...
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
I've seen too many idiots and "anti-social behaviour order" candidates on public transport - especially late at night - getting away with antagonising everyone else and making public transport unsafe to use. If installing cameras on buses and trains helps to deter them from causing trouble then I'm all for that.
Good idea.  This way, if a random guy in an overcoat gets shot while running to catch a subway, they can bring the shooters to justice.

Oh wait, scratch that.  For a moment I thought the cameras were for the benefit of the public.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
I have nothing to hide, even from the government. I'm okay about there being cameras in public places, just as long as they don't put cameras in my home I'm happy with it!  :pimp:

Ok, but let's say the government started being abusive? Then you'd try to stop them, right? Except the government could track your every movement and stop you from doing anything, or they could even kill you if they were that far gone.

That whole "I've got nothing to hide" attitude is shared by a lot of people, and very short-sighted. Not only do we have a basic right to privacy, but if we let them get away with this, then we let them get away with other things in the future.

That's only partially correct though..

There's no way the government could track everyone. At any point in time they will be focused on a few select individuals..there's simply not enough time, monitors and people to track everything.

So if a full-scale uprising is to happen, those cameras would be of no real use to the government. Besides, I'd rather be taped walking the street than be mugged/killed (or havy someone dear to me) doing so..
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
I have nothing to hide, even from the government. I'm okay about there being cameras in public places, just as long as they don't put cameras in my home I'm happy with it!  :pimp:

Ok, but let's say the government started being abusive? Then you'd try to stop them, right? Except the government could track your every movement and stop you from doing anything, or they could even kill you if they were that far gone.

That whole "I've got nothing to hide" attitude is shared by a lot of people, and very short-sighted. Not only do we have a basic right to privacy, but if we let them get away with this, then we let them get away with other things in the future.

That's only partially correct though..

There's no way the government could track everyone. At any point in time they will be focused on a few select individuals..there's simply not enough time, monitors and people to track everything.

So if a full-scale uprising is to happen, those cameras would be of no real use to the government. Besides, I'd rather be taped walking the street than be mugged/killed (or havy someone dear to me) doing so..

The government doesn't need monitors to track people; facial recognition software (possibly based on unique facial vein structure rather than features) does that job with minimal time and people cost - especially if people are made to carry RFID identity cards.  I believe the Israelis are (in particular) hard at work on the recognition part (also working on body language detection).

Moreso, did it ever occur to you that CCTV wouldn't necessarily deter the average mugger? Bung on a balaclava then run out of camera range, job done; unless you want an actual national tracking system of cameras.

finally, bear in mind the government already 'tracks' everyone to some degree- that's how they identify your aformentioned 'target' individuals from a population of millions.  The issue is, what sort of depth can they do so in?

 

Offline Fineus

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
Aldo.. Alright then, I'll play devils advocate.

What harm exactly could they do with this? I mean, so what if they can track you? What could you do.. and what could they do.. that makes this a problem?

I mean they can find you yes. But assuming you're not doing anything of a criminal nature, I can't see a reason why they'd want to. As has been said a large scale uprising would mean that even if you could find everyone, assuming the uprising was successful, it would be fruitless. Finding someone and stopping them are two different things - you said that yourself with relation to muggers and balaclava...

 
Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
Aldo.. Alright then, I'll play devils advocate.

What harm exactly could they do with this? I mean, so what if they can track you? What could you do.. and what could they do.. that makes this a problem?

I mean they can find you yes. But assuming you're not doing anything of a criminal nature, I can't see a reason why they'd want to. As has been said a large scale uprising would mean that even if you could find everyone, assuming the uprising was successful, it would be fruitless. Finding someone and stopping them are two different things - you said that yourself with relation to muggers and balaclava...

Furthermore to this point, what serious advantage does it give the government if they wanted to persecute you (for whatever unjust reason)? The police and the intelligence agencies have always been able to track down their targets - these "Big Brother" systems just make the process slightly quicker. In a country this small you'd still get caught in 'the net' sooner or later.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
Aldo.. Alright then, I'll play devils advocate.

What harm exactly could they do with this? I mean, so what if they can track you? What could you do.. and what could they do.. that makes this a problem?

I mean they can find you yes. But assuming you're not doing anything of a criminal nature, I can't see a reason why they'd want to. As has been said a large scale uprising would mean that even if you could find everyone, assuming the uprising was successful, it would be fruitless. Finding someone and stopping them are two different things - you said that yourself with relation to muggers and balaclava...

Well, the easiest argument is - what would Hitler or Stalin do with such a system?  Because, even if you don't believe Blair et al are equivalent to that, the next government down the road might be.  And surely a fundamental part of democracy is to protect the populace from the possibility of totalitarianism, not remove the obstructions to it.

That is, granted, the easy part.  The more subtle, more immediate threats are perhaps a little harder to describe.  The first thing is, under a state which desires/needs to excercise complete surveillance, then your chances of being a suspect for no good reason are increased - being in the wrong place at the wrong time (in terms of the police/security service view), and thus being arrested, detained, interned, etc becomes more likely.  This is perhaps close to the prior point, though, but worth reiterating in view of the governments' eagerness (and desire) to detain people nigh-indefinately on dodgy anti-terrorism charges.

Also, you risk being labelled as a 'subversive' type by association (meeting, knowing, even passing by frequently) with people opposing the government.  That is, something akin to Thatcher using MI5 to infiltrate trade unions, but on a more pervasive manner (imagine if the destruction of Trade Union influence was paralleled by a destruction of political dissedence and thought).  On the uprising side of things, this allows security services to identify and 'attack' dissidents before any sort of ground movement can begin.

On top of the latter 2 is the risk of data 'leak'; that is, that this information is sold, stolen or simply lost and ends up in the hands of people whose possesion of it will hurt you, simply by the bias or conclusions they draw.  What if (perhaps potential) employers can gain access to your movements and decide you spend too many nights in the pub, for example?  Or if Tesco purchase your data and decide you spend too long in Asda and should receive some spam?  It seems ludicrous, but there will be a cost to be paid and the government loves cash cows.

Finally, with regards to identification.  There's several caveats here, which I avoided going into detail before on.  Firstly, it's worth noting that my comment on the ineffectiveness of CCTV against crime was directed at the concept of the current close-to-but-not-all-pervasive, human monitored system (although it's worth noting an automatic system wouldn't prevent crime so much as ease prosecution).  But for a national CCTV network with facial recognition (allowing automated tracking) to arise, it's likely there'd also be a system in place that recorded biometric data (i.e. ID cards), allowing easier correlation.  Moreso, it'd have the capability to track you all the way to your front door - gathering data that means that whilst you're recorded as 'Citizen#35325" in the database, it's relatively trivial to analyse that and get a name. 

In essence, an automated tracking system would be an almost direct equivalent of chipping everyone with a government GPS transponder.

But even if it doesn't work, then it still represents a tremendous waste of money better invested in visible policing, or correcting the social causes of crime.


 
Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
In short, monitoring everyone with cameras, ID cards, etc is so vastly inefficient there's no way it can have any appreciable effect on crime, while the potential for misuse is unacceptably high.

The government thinks it can do a better job if it has more data, but what really happens is that they just have more crap to wade through. Even computerised analysis won't affect that much.
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Offline aldo_14

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Re: Big Brother is most definitely watching you.
In short, monitoring everyone with cameras, ID cards, etc is so vastly inefficient there's no way it can have any appreciable effect on crime, while the potential for misuse is unacceptably high.

The government thinks it can do a better job if it has more data, but what really happens is that they just have more crap to wade through. Even computerised analysis won't affect that much.

Ahhh, yes, thank you.

Guess which one of us isn't jetlagged today.....