[WMCoolmon]

So Ubuntu has a:

• Media player
• Web browser
• Office software
• "Browse networks"
• Instant messenger
• Some extra apps

Vista has a:

• Media editor (Windows movie maker)
• Web browser (MSN Explorer)
• Games

But while Ubuntu's stuff is "the necessary basic software you need", Vista's software is "bloat"...even though according to your listing there is more of it. :wtf: And I would actually say myself that there is more of it, I have a whole bunch of OpenOffice stuff that I believe was installed by default. I don't ever remember actually needing it, but it's still installed and taking up space...I actually installed Abiword instead of using the bloated OpenOffice word processor...so... :p

I don't think Microsoft needs to include it's software on a second disk so much as it needs to rework the quality and design specs a bit. Double standards annoy me.

What would be nice is if there were an operating system with more thought put into the choices that it offered, so you could add or remove things without micromanaging and struggling with dependencies (Linux) or swinging wildly with a baseball bat (Windows).

For example: "I want an X Windows system, with office software, and the ability to burn CD/DVDs, and a basic command line, but I don't want any media players or web browsers installed" for an office machine. Or: "I want an X windows system with a web browser installed, and nothing else" for a web kiosk. Or: "I want basic command line tools, and a web server, but nothing else." Something that would offer a LFS level of optimization without necessitating compiling dozens of individual packages and tweaking who-knows-how-many-config-files by hand.

[S-99]

Bloat for the very basic linux desktop that has  pretty much what you need. It's pretty complete and simple.

Web browser, first find out what MSN explorer is first (and i don't mean ie directly by this comment). Games aren't really necessary, same thing with a media editor. Now hey, i wasn't the first guy in this thread to call vista bloated. And that really wasn't the topic of my last post. It was about, what about the software that people do consider bloat that they hardly use being included after installation...what's a way to handle that?

Also i wasn't getting to in depth with the software included in ubuntu, just making generalizations at what you're basic kubuntu installation will give you. Who cares if you like abiword more than openoffice. Abiword is faster to open, and that's only a word processor...not a whole office suite, but that's really about it. i know one reason why ubuntu features OOo is because average novices know what it is sort of like they know about firefox. I do like abiword and would use it myself, but last i remembered it doesn't really quite have support for odt format (yes i use that format).

I did get in depth with the windows software, but with vista i think it's safe to say that there's a lot more on the computer after installation than kubuntu. After that for my list of windows bloat, i couldn't think of many windows programs off the top of my head that may be considered bloat.

For example: "I want an X Windows system, with office software, and the ability to burn CD/DVDs, and a basic command line, but I don't want any media players or web browsers installed" for an office machine. Or: "I want an X windows system with a web browser installed, and nothing else" for a web kiosk. Or: "I want basic command line tools, and a web server, but nothing else." Something that would offer a LFS level of optimization without necessitating compiling dozens of individual packages and tweaking who-knows-how-many-config-files by hand.

The only distro of linux i've seen that actually offers choices sort of like what you want here is fedora core. Download all of the cd's and it aks you what you want for pretty much everything.

[jr2]

Mandriva?

[Nuke]

vistas what, 4x the size of xp, and from the outside it appears to be the same. and my dual core machine feels like my old computer. ubunto is just as bloated, and my laptop barely manages to chug along under this distro of linux. i should put win2k back on because once it starts up it runs about as fast as a low end computer should. with ubuntu it feels like a 300 or 400 mhz machine, while its really 800. in w2k it behaves like its going 800 mhz. i really dont want to give up on linux so soon. fawn probibly isnt the best distro to use on it i think. i need a good distro for low end machines, not too big and can operate fairly well on low memory and it would need good wireless support.

windows programs are more bloat in my mind simply because i wouldnt trust them to handle my data without shredding it. i like to set up my own data folders and keep em away from the os. an operating system should just operate the system. manage drives and file systems, deal with hardware and memory, handle apis, do networking, ect. things like a notepad or gedit might be essential for editing config files and such. but the users should get to choose what programs they want and the os should mind its own buisness and not try to integrate everything. giving the web browser a direct line to the system has always been a bad idea. i seriously havent seen an unbloated os sense the mac classic (i think it was system 4 i used). nt was pretty light weight but it was always incompatable with everything.

im really pissed off at windows for not giving you as many installation options as it used to. windows also has a habbit of installing things dispite being told not to. it still creates folders for that stuff and the system freaks if you remove them. in win 98 you could uncheck everything and disable of the web features and it was sorta nice. each version of windows had less and less stuff you could turn off untill finally the feature was completely removed. something i dont like about of linux distros is all the less than version 1 software. of the time its neccisary to run beta drivers or a util thats still in development. but the distro will claim to be compatable with x hardware or y feature, only to find out when you install that its in alpha.

[castor]

For example: "I want an X Windows system, with office software, and the ability to burn CD/DVDs, and a basic command line, but I don't want any media players or web browsers installed" for an office machine.

This is easy in debian. Unselect everything except the "standard system" below, let the installer finish, then do:

apt-get install x-window-system
apt-get install kde-core (or gnome-core, or whatever you wish) [ok, kde-core gives you a web browser, but konqueror is the file manager too]
apt-get install openoffice.org-writer (and whatever components you need)
apt-get install k3b (or Gnomebaker, or whatever)

There.

[Nuke]

the only problem with apt-get install is it doesnt work without an internet connection and to get that working i need quite of other crap.

[castor]

Ok, that is a problem... though you could purchase the CD set and apt-get install from there

[S-99]

You might have fun with the debian net-install cd. With that cd you just get to grab packages and build up you're own installation of debian as you prefer. The only problem i ran into with it was configuring fstab, and me experimenting with the unstable repositories ended up being undesirable in the end. Debian unstable is not the holy of holies. That's when i knew i should just stick with ubuntu. Then again, all linux distros feature the ability to add and remove wtf you want. So if you end up with a bloated distro, you can easily make it unbloated.

A good distro for older machines and low hardware requirements i've found is Antix. Antix is based off of the mepis core, which is  moving away from an ubuntu core back to debian pureness. Just click the link, it'll tell you all about the hardware requirements for it and so on, not to mention the new version of it came out, so it's based on debian as opposed to the past version of antix which was based on ubuntu.

For me, i did more research on why gutsy gibbon didn't like to work on the internet. The devs forgot to add in a patch for the networking when gutsy was still in beta, this missing patch would make the net really slow for many as well as making the net not work for many even though you'd be connected. Pretty much gutsy was 99% of the time operating on the ipv6 standard. I just blacklisted ipv6 for now, lo and behold, my net still works after much system tweaking and restarting. The next problem i have to solve is why nvidia-glx-new being enabled on my system from the gutsy repos makes my  net not work (i was thinking i'd just install nvidia-glx-new the older version from the feisty repos and see if my net still works while i have 3d at the same time). After that kopete crashes all the time (again i was thinking i'd just grab the older version of kopete from the feisty repos and see if that clears up my problem with a crashing kopete...for now pidgin).

The ubuntu devs have a pre-released fix for the net problem, but i figured i'll just blacklist ipv6 until the pre-release fix comes out officially (then again certain distros like linuxmint blacklist ipv6 all the time by default anyway...ipv6 is still barely in use around the world). I don't want to try a pre-release fix for it to **** up something. I did take the time to check out a distro that's still rather new and emerging. I got a hold of freespire 2.0.6, it's a good looking distro that works great, and comes with all the restricted codecs out the ass by default. It's a distro designed for those use to windows in mind. Based on feisty, i had to give it a try. I had to modify xorg for my monitor resolutions and make 3d work, no biggie for me. But, the 3d was so slow in freespire, it was really odd, since out of the mood with ****ing with it more, i found a way to cure my internetless woes in gutsy, and using the nv driver for now is ok.

[WMCoolmon]

Debian net-install looks vurra interesting, I'll have to give that a look next time I fiddle around with Linux/OSes.

[Nuke]

i guess the idea is if you dont like any of the distros out there, make your own.

antix looks ok, but i worry if its too low end. this laptop is only a vintage low end model from 1999. its got some umph to it. nothings really keeping me form trying a new os on here. i dont exactly use this for anything but programming, and i dont keep any other files on here. so i guess il screw around with other oses on a when i feel like it basis

[S-99]

Mepis is a very good distro, i think you can trust antix.
But, if you really don't care about which kind of linux you're running, i've heard vectorlinux is a good distro. Vectorlinux looks like a great distro either way. However i am debian only and will stay that way for many reasons (i've heard better stuff about slackware than redhat). Then again, you'd probably be just fine running a normal distro on your computer. 800mhz sounds fine for running a distro, 128 and 256 mb have worked in the past with livecd's (i used mepis 6.5 livecd for maintenance of some computers with low memory).

But, really it's the memory requirements you need to keep in check with. Use xfce, fluxbox, icewm, or any of the other low memory using desktop environments out there. After that make sure to get a collection of non memory eating apps to go along with it. Abiword with gnumeric as opposed to openoffice suite is something you should definitely do. Use a lightweight web browser....use light weight apps all around. I'd stick with debian and try the netinstall so that way you can create you're own concoction of light weight distro. And if you like what you made, remember it...if you must then create you're own distro with morphix with the set of tools they have from there. Morphix is based on debian and is a modular distro that's a livecd and does hard drive installs. If you really don't know what to choose for the making of your personalized lightweight os install, then you should definitely try out the morphix livecds that can be downloaded. The ones i'd pay attention to for lightweight distro in mind to download is the morphix pre 4 light gui, and the morphix pre 5 icewm desktop iso downloads. You might already like those good enough to get what you want done. I've tried them both, xfce desktop is awesome, and using icewm was interesting. The major memory eaters is gnome and kde so you should stay away from those if you want to run lightly.

[Mars]

I used Xfce on my old machine for a while, then I realized KDE actually took up fewer resources.

[Nuke]

i tried that antix distro and it didnt do much. couldnt even figure out how to get a terminal. so now im downloading mephis. maybe that will run on my leptop without being a whore.

[MikeRoz]

Gentoo is a great distro for customization. When you're done with the install, you don't even have X

Speaking to the OT, I find that every time Ubuntu comes out with a new LiveDVD, they add new bugs and don't fix old ones. The more they try to do, the more they break. Examples:

-Sometime in '06 they decided to start supporting Bluetooth out of the box in the LiveCD environment. That's all well and good, but don't switch my Bluetooth hub from HID to HCI without bothering to reconnect my peripherals. And yes, I know there are ways you can do that manually, but if said peripherals are your keyboard and mouse, you kind of need said peripherals to connect said peripherals...

-Besides the Bluetooth input devices, I hardly have what any would consider an exotic setup. Yet for some reason right before GDM starts, my screen goes black. The only way to get it back is to <Ctrl> <Alt> <F1> and then <Ctrl> <Alt> <F7> back to the login screen. I'm guessing this has to do with their more aggressive support of video adapters, all in the name of an accelerated desktop in a LiveCD environment.

-Fakeraid is broken. RAID0 and RAID1 work with many onboard controllers, but if you attempt to initialize a RAID5, dmraid looks for a deprecated kernel module. This isn't actually an Ubuntu issue; it seems to affect all distros.

Right now I'm running Gentoo on my desktop and Vista Business on my tablet. Both are great operating systems, and I love them both for different reasons. At the end of the day, however, I prefer Vista, but I'm sort of stuck with Linux for now since I have 100s of GB of data in a software RAID5. My plan is to someday spin off the array into a headless fileserver and use Gentoo for that, and put Vista back on my primary desktop.

[WMCoolmon]

Gentoo is a great distro for customization. When you're done with the install, you don't even have X

For me, Gentoo was another distro that fell victim to crappy end-user support. I spent several hours searching for an error, only to find that not only was it a widely known error, but it was with the USE flags and could have been easily documented. When it was all said and done, I had to add at least a half-dozen USE flags that I never wanted, completely screwing up my nicely optimized system. I'd originally tried out Gentoo because I heard you could optimize everything for your system, which really interested me.

The system lasted until I got a web browser, E-mail, Abiword, Kaffeine, and the required dependencies (X server, Fluxbox) installed. At that point the system stopped working because it ran out of HDD space. Compared to the last distro I used - Yoper - I was lacking KDE, an office suite, other assorted niceties, and about 2 GB of hard drive space. Sadly enough, I later learned that this, too, was a known bug; it just required knowing that you had to run a cleaning script (Which wasn't mentioned in the manual).

Dunno what to say about Vista, though. I'm still using 2000; it's a lot cheaper.

[jr2]

Pick up a used XP from eBay, patch it to SP2.    XP is pretty nice... unless you have low memory ( < 256MB), then I'd keep 2000.  XP has better multimedia support.  Plus, you can run MS Virtual PC on it and run any OS out there from within Windows.  (AFAIK, any OS.. are there exceptions?)

[Nuke]

i installed win xp pro x64 to a removeable drive to test out. and it worked rather well. i might use that when vista pisses me off enough to require a format. all my hardware had 64-bit drivers for it.