Author Topic: Hard Light Debate Thread  (Read 10197 times)

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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
it makes perfict sence that a species would be driven to survive, that is the thesis point of evolution, are you saying evolution doesn't make sence?
actualy i have no idea what you're trying to say here, so I'll just let you refraise it
 


Species have no "drive" to survive, it's a simple "jyakunikukyoushyoku" relation (Weak Meat, Strong Eat) where the ones who turn out best win and the others get eaten... There is no "drive" involved... at least not necessarily. (sometimes our minds are fasihoned to win, but that isn't a "drive" in my opinion. Also many evolutionary traits are physical...)
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Bobboau

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Quote
] Originally posted by Kamikaze

Hmmm, interesting... what about the developement of religion? Is that all in the genes "master plan" or is that some kind of random element that's not supposed to be there? And if so, why do virtually all cultures devlop religion?

/me finds it odd
[/B]

it is posable that there is a genetic preposition for humans to develop religon, it does fill in many conceptual needs, like a perpose, it's hard to da anything if you don't have any reason to do anything.
if religon gives an you more healthy offspring that are themselves likely to do the same than others, then yes it would be selected by natural selection
and the fact that many religons liked to kill people that are not part of that religon than being part of that religon would prove benifisal in the long run
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the "concept of "survival" as a universal purpose/objective" is not erronius becase if this wasn't the overideing goal than we wouldn't be here haveing this discusion, in evolution things don't have consus awareness that they are trying to have childeren, this is the concept you must be running under to make jugements about evolutionary systems becase it is the overideing goal in an evolutionary system, nobody rationaly thought it up but when things start replicateing themselves imprefictly the ones that survive the best are going to be the ones that will make the next generation. it isn't in the grand sceem of things important but it is the goal
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Offline Kamikaze

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau

the "concept of "survival" as a universal purpose/objective"


but there is no "universal purpouse/objective" when it comes to genetics because it's not a matter of purpouse/objective as genes don't do that - it's just a coincidental he dies, I live thing.
And when it comes to humans we don't really have it as a "purpouse" more of a genetical obligation which I wouldn't call a purpouse.

edit: i'm going to sleep too so someone take my spot till tommorow :p
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Bobboau

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when I say "drive" I am meaning that those that don't die
evolution is a system, it has a goal
the goal, is to survive and make more offsping that are going to survive and have more offsping that are going to suvive and.........
dirve doesn't have the instruction placed any were, nothing is thinking "ok in order to survive" or "I want to reproduce", but thouse that don't are removed from relivence

[edit]I am felling the dirve to sleep as well
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Offline Sandwich

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Originally posted by Bobboau
I am felling the dirve to sleep as well


ROFL!
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Offline CP5670

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it makes perfict sence that a species would be driven to survive, that is the thesis point of evolution, are you saying evolution doesn't make sence?
actualy i have no idea what you're trying to say here, so I'll just let you refraise it


No, I am saying that "survive" does not make any sense in the way you are using it there; see below.

Quote
the "concept of "survival" as a universal purpose/objective" is not erronius becase if this wasn't the overideing goal than we wouldn't be here haveing this discusion, in evolution things don't have consus awareness that they are trying to have childeren, this is the concept you must be running under to make jugements about evolutionary systems becase it is the overideing goal in an evolutionary system, nobody rationaly thought it up but when things start replicateing themselves imprefictly the ones that survive the best are going to be the ones that will make the next generation. it isn't in the grand sceem of things important but it is the goal


I have already talked about this exact subject elsewhere, so I will just copy/paste from another thread: :D

See my original post on this sub-topic for more information on this part. You see, going by one definition of "survival" in which we talk of the existence of the individual particles, we would survive regardless of what we did. (conservation of energy) Going by the other definition, in which we define a state of complete stasis in the relative positions of the particles, we would die out, once again in spite of anything we try, since we cannot completely stop the change. There can be nothing in between the two that does not rely on perceptual, non-absolute distinctions, and thus is useless for our purposes.

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the ability to do math does have evedence for it being genetic, if our minds wern't disigned to do it we wouldn't be able to, now certanly some things are cultural, but things that are fairly universal and promote survival can be assumed to be genetic.
give me a fairly universal concept nearly all humans have that isn't genetic


Just because we can do it does not necessarily mean that it is directly coded in our genes. That is where cultural influence comes in. Here is one: jealousy. This is seen everywhere, and yet it is not exactly "promoting survival." (of the entire society)

I say that the individual human only starts off with that which will allow for the prolonged survival of that individual only, and since the human has a discrete point where it ceases to survive (death), this actually has some meaning. (for a species, no such point exists)

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there are ways you can classify objects, how about geneticaly, or by the structure of there brain, rocks don't have brains, or genes(unless the rock has something growing on it, but then that isn't the genes of that rock)
humans classified
living_thing.cellular_life.multi_cellular.animal.vertibrate.ma mal.primate.(insert large amount statistical genetic data that defines a human seperate from a chimpansee)


Well, no we cannot; as Leibniz said, "nature does nothing in leaps." In other words, everything, at least in terms of ideas, is fully continuous; between any two species, no matter how closely related, one can find another species in between. The classifications only exist for our own purposes of deduction. In a universal way, we cannot say that all species between the human/chimpanzee barrier fall into one of the two categories, because you will always have something exactly in the middle. This is the concept of ideal continuity.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2002, 10:00:49 am by 296 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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I am not talking about survival of the individual more than the survival of the species, though the survival of the individual up to reproduction is nesicary for the survial of the species, after reproduction the survival of the individual is only important to insure the survival of the offspring (and for more chances  to reproduce), though humans carry this secondary function further than most other animals (but not to an exceptional degree).

how are non absolute diferences useless, there the only way to make jugements in the real world, relitivly few absolute truths exsist outside of theory (relitive to the non-absolute), I know you being a math person you don't like dealing with things that can be quantifyed but you must acsept there is a clear if not absolute diference between a rock and a human


Quote
Just because we can do it does not necessarily mean that it is directly coded in our genes. That is where cultural influence comes in. Here is one: jealousy. This is seen everywhere, and yet it is not exactly "promoting survival." (of the entire society)


it isn't necisary but the fact that a dog can't do math sugests there is a genetic factor
jealousy; a feeling that someone else has something that you should have, and the desire to obtain it or to cause that other idividual to lose posesion of it, often regardless of cost,
baised on primarily on greed, and to a lesser extent the sence of justice (it isn't fair that they have it and I don't)
yes this is an anti-socal instinct, but it is baised on clearly neicary instincts (greed)
jealousy would make a person more likely to be relitivly sucseful than other people ether by driveing them to do beter or by driving them to bring down rivals,  wich is how it is still around despite its negitive efects.
however it is detromental to the socal construct wich is central to the survival human race, so it is classifyed as beeing a "bad" thing and socaly looked down apon, becase the socal rules inherant in our instinctive socal structure deem this behavor bad, becase over the melinia those groupes of people that alowed greed to overcome generosity were less succesful that those who didn't


Quote
I say that the individual human only starts off with that which will allow for the prolonged survival of that individual only, and since the human has a discrete point where it ceases to survive (death), this actually has some meaning. (for a species, no such point exists)


so would it not have meaning for there to also be instincts that promote a groupe of closly related people, much like the cells in a body all have rules to work together

I have to quit now, be back later
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Offline CP5670

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I am not talking about survival of the individual more than the survival of the species, though the survival of the individual up to reproduction is nesicary for the survial of the species, after reproduction the survival of the individual is only important to insure the survival of the offspring (and for more chances  to reproduce), though humans carry this secondary function further than most other animals (but not to an exceptional degree).


But we know that this is in fact not what the individual strives for; even that article you linked to said that.

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how are non absolute diferences useless, there the only way to make jugements in the real world, relitivly few absolute truths exsist outside of theory (relitive to the non-absolute), I know you being a math person you don't like dealing with things that can be quantifyed but you must acsept there is a clear if not absolute diference between a rock and a human


And which is? I will accept that there is a difference between a rock and a human, but not a discrete difference. In other words, you will always be able to find something exactly halfway between the two that can be classified as neither more rock nor more human. Do the same with this new object and the human, and we will have something else in between once again. Continue this process forever, and you get ideal continuity.

Non-absolute differences are fine when they are the only such distinction available, but here we can think of an infinite number of equally good distinctions; therefore, they are all meaningless.

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it isn't necisary but the fact that a dog can't do math sugests there is a genetic factor
jealousy; a feeling that someone else has something that you should have, and the desire to obtain it or to cause that other idividual to lose posesion of it, often regardless of cost,
baised on primarily on greed, and to a lesser extent the sence of justice (it isn't fair that they have it and I don't)
yes this is an anti-socal instinct, but it is baised on clearly neicary instincts (greed)
jealousy would make a person more likely to be relitivly sucseful than other people ether by driveing them to do beter or by driving them to bring down rivals,  wich is how it is still around despite its negitive efects.
however it is detromental to the socal construct wich is central to the survival human race, so it is classifyed as beeing a "bad" thing and socaly looked down apon, becase the socal rules inherant in our instinctive socal structure deem this behavor bad, becase over the melinia those groupes of people that alowed greed to overcome generosity were less succesful that those who didn't


It is so, but then why is it that the majoirty of individual people still go by it anyway? It seems to me that you are trying to say why jealousy is not good for the society, and I will agree with you on there, but that is beside the point; the question is whether or not people start off with it or learn it in the course of their lives, and whethere or not people automatically do what is best for the society.

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so would it not have meaning for there to also be instincts that promote a groupe of closly related people, much like the cells in a body all have rules to work together


Not instincts in the way you are speaking of there; thinking in one way, everything could be said to be an instinct by the very fact that we are doing it.

I think we need to define "instinct" more precisely here before going on. Is it what humans have in their minds at birth or what they gain through experience? (both can be instinctual)

 

Offline Kamikaze

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Nyuck, everyone seems to be ignoring my arguments :p

/me went to school today and argued with religoius people...

Here's one: Why does a god let us masturbate... and if we were created in god's image, does he masturbate? (this was actually brought up :p)
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline CP5670

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What did they say to that? :D

 

Offline vyper

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Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
Nyuck, everyone seems to be ignoring my arguments :p

/me went to school today and argued with religoius people...

Here's one: Why does a god let us masturbate... and if we were created in god's image, does he masturbate? (this was actually brought up :p)


Man, I must be omnipotent by now.... :nervous:
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Offline Kamikaze

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Originally posted by CP5670
What did they say to that? :D


They said no and that masturbating is bad and since god is perfect he doesn't.. or it might've been the otehr way around: god is perfect, he doesn't masturbate therefore masturbation is bad :p (it was quite a bad counter-argument, all of the religious guys arguments were :p)

And he also resorted to false assumptions: god is perfect, therefore whatever he doesn't do is imperfection... perfection is god and so on. Also it was said that god tests our "faith" (*cough*) so we can become perfect beings (what the hell?)...

my thoughts: it's all his game ;7 (we were assuming god exists.. for the sake of argument)
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline CP5670

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lol...the concept of this "universal perfection" is so ridiculous it's not even funny... :D (after all, he could be perfect at being stupid, or perfect at being imperfect)

 

Offline Kamikaze

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The person had a very hard time understanding that... you could tell from all the frowns on his face and his conclusion: I'll never convince you anyway so this is pointless :lol: :lol:
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline CP5670

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hehe :D :D

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Well technically. the parents are killing the unborn children. They are effectivly "Dead" aftert they have been donated to the "cause"

i don't know, is it wrong for the parents to donate stem cells. At one point it was thier "ingridiants" per se. At what point do they lose rights over where it goes? Don't get me wrong, i don't mean that they own their baby and can do anytihng from Drop it form an airplane, to selling it on ebay . But i say they should be able to donate it.  

I don't know, this could sound pretty ignorant but i don't really considerate a living thing untill it shows a sign of life. Like moving, eating, or so forth. It's a lil hard to form into words right now. But i am in a "The Knowledge and Benefit" is worth it mood. so :ha:

Edit = By the way, there was a buig on my screen just now, and i wiped it away , effectively killing it. Am i considered a murderer now? I mean i just took a life. It may not have been human, but it was a "living" thing. And yet i feel no remorse at all.  It's interesting how humans selfishly rationalize one thing, but critisize another. ... damn hypocritis.. :doubt:
« Last Edit: September 25, 2002, 11:15:46 pm by 675 »
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Offline Kamikaze

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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Well technically. the parents are killing the unborn children. They are effectivly "Dead" aftert they have been donated to the "cause"


Did anyone say otherwise? /me checks
Also is the act of killing for research equally valid as killing for abortion? me thinks so. Actually abortion should be bad and research donation should be allowed :p

Quote

i don't know, is it wrong for the parents to donate stem cells. At one point it was thier "ingridiants" per se. At what point do they lose rights over where it goes? Don't get me wrong, i don't mean that they own their baby and can do anytihng from Drop it form an airplane, to selling it on ebay . But i say they should be able to donate it.
[/b]

Interestingly some people say "waht if you were the baby"? Well, in that case I couldn't care could I? hehe :p

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By the way, there was a buig on my screen just now, and i wiped it away , effectively killing it. Am i considered a murderer now? I mean i just took a life. It may not have been human, but it was a "living" thing. And yet i feel no remorse at all. It's interesting how humans selfishly rationalize one thing, but critisize another. ... damn hypocritis..


That's because we have all these false "me is better than you" mindsets and these biases usually aren't avoidable :p Anyway, I'm really not going to care about killing things - I kill bacteria every day by using soap. (and of course, predators kill prey. Stomach acids kill certain bacteria, etc. etc.) It's a natural cycle of die and live so there's really nothing to be guilty about.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2002, 11:22:01 pm by 179 »
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Carl

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you know, we don't even need embryos. there are stem cells other places in the human body, too. the embryo thing is just so people can justify abortions.
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Offline Carl

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an from both a religious and atheist stand point, we are better than that bug.
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Offline CP5670

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Edit = By the way, there was a buig on my screen just now, and i wiped it away , effectively killing it. Am i considered a murderer now? I mean i just took a life. It may not have been human, but it was a "living" thing. And yet i feel no remorse at all.  It's interesting how humans selfishly rationalize one thing, but critisize another. ... damn hypocritis.. :doubt:


That's what I mean when I say that these morals/ethics are completely screwed up. :p Might as well ditch them altogether.

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It's a natural cycle of die and live so there's really nothing to be guilty about.


Exactly; even if one does "unethical" things, that is simply a part of the universe.

As for abortion, I say ban it just to discourage sex. :D (and ban all the contraceptive crap out there too :D)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2002, 11:46:02 pm by 296 »