Author Topic: New MOD maker  (Read 8740 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
I was thinking of just assigning a number to every basic idea and forming an intricate structure of numbers categorized by what they mean. So if we have "math is good," it can be represented by:

math-subj/obj=436-x
is(a,b...|tense)=1(a,b...|x)
good-intensity=25-x

So we have something like:
1( 436-1 , 25-10 | 0 )

Now this would be the ultimate language. ;7
« Last Edit: October 03, 2002, 08:50:59 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
You have WAAAAAAAAAYYY to much free time. Get out a little more.:D

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
one : Ahhhhhh!!!!! French canadians!!! :shaking: :shaking:

two: It was Globex, not omnicore, in the episode "Mr. Scorpio and the Globex Corporation" :Nitpickage: !! great episode

three:



and four : ahhhhhhhh!!! french candians!! :shaking: :nervous: :shaking: *runs*







;)
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Solatar

  • 211
I'm not a Canadian. I'm from the good 'ole USA!!

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

  • Atankharz'ythi
  • 211
Quote
Originally posted by Corhellion
Je parle francais, pars-que Je m'appelle Canadian!


Your name is Canadian?  Perhaps you meant je suis Canadien.  ;)
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
I was thinking of just assigning a number to every basic idea and forming an intricate structure of numbers categorized by what they mean. So if we have "math is good," it can be represented by:

math-subj/obj=436-x
is(a,b...|tense)=1(a,b...|x)
good-intensity=25-x

So we have something like:
1( 436-1 , 25-10 | 0 )

Now this would be the ultimate language. ;7


That example is merely English written with different symbols.  

Mathematics couldn't be used to make a language.  Mathematics, no matter how complex, deals with only one quality, that of quantity.  The human mind, and thus language, deals with innumerable other sorts of qualities, and these qualities are not quantitative (for if they were, they'd be quantity).

The core of language, or more properly, of languages, is in their relation of meanings.  Mathematics' set of relations is limited to a very few, and in fact only two when we fully break them down: + and -.  One need only look at the single most obvious example of linguistic terms of relation, the preposition, to see the inadequacy of mathematics in this regard:  the meanings of in, at, under, by, to, towards, around, though, with, on, out, over, from, etc., cannot be even remotely accounted for by any mathematical terms.  

Moving to a more complex situation, adjectives and adverbs relate to their nouns or verbs/adjectives/other adverbs in ways that, even on the formally grammatical level, are far beyond the capabilities of mathmatics to express or even recognise.  Beyond this, the relations of meaning being conveyed through the medium of the grammatical form of the situation are so astoundingly far beyond mathematics' capacity that the very thought of comparision is nonsensical.  

I could keep going on to, say, relations of meaning via verbs, meanings conveyed through topics of discourse, meanings conveyed via inflection, emotional meanings (how do you be sarcastic mathmatically?), and so on and so on for as long as one might wish.  The coup de gras however, comes with the fact that words have semantic range, which means they could never be pinned down to any one single meaning anyway, thereby utterly defying the most intrinsic nature of mathematics at its very core.  But I think I've made my point. :D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2002, 01:29:56 am by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

The Scroll of Atankharzim | FS2 syntax highlighting

 

Offline diamondgeezer


 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Quote
That example is merely English written with different symbols.


This is a very simple example, but my point is that the meanings contained there can be broken down into more general concepts and their their combinations create more specialized meanings. (of course, there is no true logical "elementary building block," but any of a number of them can be used)

Quote
One need only look at the single most obvious example of linguistic terms of relation, the preposition, to see the inadequacy of mathematics in this regard: the meanings of in, at, under, by, to, towards, around, though, with, on, out, over, from, etc., cannot be even remotely accounted for by any mathematical terms.


um...every one of those can be reduced to some series of mathematical commands, + and - if you will. Or rather, logical algorithms, but that is basically math. :D

Quote
Mathematics couldn't be used to make a language. Mathematics, no matter how complex, deals with only one quality, that of quantity. The human mind, and thus language, deals with innumerable other sorts of qualities, and these qualities are not quantitative (for if they were, they'd be quantity).


Well, anything is quantifyable in some way or another. :p (no such thing as a quality that is not also a quantity)

Quote
Beyond this, the relations of meaning being conveyed through the medium of the grammatical form of the situation are so astoundingly far beyond mathematics' capacity that the very thought of comparision is nonsensical.


All language can be reduced to mathematics, so it is simply a subset of mathematics. This is what the field of logical semantics is all about. Mathematics encloses every language out there and much more; give me one example of something that is "astoundingly far beyond mathematics' capacity" and you'll get a cookie. :D

Quote
You have WAAAAAAAAAYYY to much free time. Get out a little more.:D


What is this "getting out" you people speak of? :D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2002, 01:51:35 am by 296 »

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
We should make a thread where Ses (our Language Buff) can duke it out with CP (our math nerd ;) )

High Noon at the 0/K Corral

:D

EDIT: a thread completely dedicate dto it :wink:
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

  
Sesqui: er...ya, I think, I dunno I was half alseep when I wrote that.

KT: YEAH! That's the one!

Cor

 
It means "Thank you very much, it was very helpful." I'm not going to post en francais, but I was in the middle of French class when I typed the message.:yes:
"You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means."

"And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone.  The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up.  The moon was as blood and the sun was as ashes, and the living envied the dead.  All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above the others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World.  And he they named Dragon."

"We do not change over time for we are as flowers unfolding. We meerly become more nearly ourselves."

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

  • Atankharz'ythi
  • 211
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
This is a very simple example, but my point is that the meanings contained there can be broken down into more general concepts and their their combinations create more specialized meanings. (of course, there is no true logical "elementary building block," but any of a number of them can be used)
You aren't breaking them down.  You just found a simplistic way to render English into different symbols.  French written using your "system" would be different, even as French itself is different from English.  If you want to invent a new language, you are going to have to invent a new grammar to govern it.

"Breaking down" the meanings of words is not possible the way you seem to be thinking.  First of all, the meanings of words are dynamic, and can't be pinned down the way numbers are.  Secondly, the meanings of words are already as simple as they get.  I cannot reduce the verb "break" down into simpler components.  The meaning of the verb already is as simple as it gets.

Quote
um...every one of those can be reduced to some series of mathematical commands, + and - if you will. Or rather, logical algorithms, but that is basically math. :D


Do it then.  Give me a full mathematical set of operations that can correspond to all the meanings of the prepositions listed. :D

Quote
Well, anything is quantifyable in some way or another. :p (no such thing as a quality that is not also a quantity)
 False.  "Nice" is not quantitative.  "Japanese" is not quantitative.  "Attack" is not quantitative.  "Perhaps" is not quantitative.  "Unknown" is not quantitative.

Quote
All language can be reduced to mathematics, so it is simply a subset of mathematics. This is what the field of logical semantics is all about. Mathematics encloses every language out there and much more; give me one example of something that is "astoundingly far beyond mathematics' capacity" and you'll get a cookie. :D
 I did: sarcasm.  One cannot have a sarcasitic math equation.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2002, 07:24:05 pm by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

The Scroll of Atankharzim | FS2 syntax highlighting

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Quote
You aren't breaking them down.  You just found a simplistic way to render English into different symbols.  French written using your "system" would be different, even as French itself is different from English.  If you want to invent a new language, you are going to have to invent a new grammar to govern it.


Not really; every single language out there follows the exact same conventions as far as the meanings go, because they are all based on the same thing: common human experience. (and you can ask a linguist for the details) I agree that the particular one I gave there was a poor example in certain ways, but my point still stands.

Quote
"Breaking down" the meanings of words is not possible the way you seem to be thinking.  First of all, the meanings of words are dynamic, and can't be pinned down the way numbers are.  Secondly, the meanings of words are already as simple as they get.  I cannot reduce the verb "break" down into simpler components.  The meaning of the verb already is as simple as it gets.


The meanings may be "dynamic," but discrete (or if continuous, can be represented as a real number), and can thus be reduced a multitude of equivalent logical statements. I can certainly reduce "break" into simpler components; its individual meanings are distinct and the word can thus be subdivided into 10 or so parts, each of which carry a more definite meaning, and these can then be reduced to a bunch of logical statements. Where do you think logical semantics comes from? :p This field is all about breaking down linguistic statements into logical statements, and yes, it works. Even computer programming languages are equally as much "languages" as any of the ones in common human use.

Quote
Do it then.  Give me a full mathematical set of operations that can correspond to all the meanings of the prepositions listed. :D


True/False/indet/etc.
+/-
Iteration
If/then/else
ZF set theory axioms

That should cover most things. :D

Quote
False.  "Nice" is not quantitative.  "Japanese" is not quantitative.  "Attack" is not quantitative.  "Perhaps" is not quantitative.  "Unknown" is not quantitative.[/size]


False. :D Every single one of those is quantitive. We will examine the first one to get the idea. Nice is opposite of whatever, mean, so it can be considered 0 as opposed to 1. Already we have a true/false quantity. What exactly defines "nice" in common usage? We need a precise statement such as this: a person is said to nice if he or she responds to stimuli in category x1 with actions in category x2 under certain given conditions. (the details need to be filled in of course, but this is the general idea) Now, it is easy to see that "nice" actually has a number of meanings; among them are any level of intensity of "nice." (somewhat nice, nice, very nice, etc.) To remove this ambiguity, "nice" can be much further quantified by assigning an intensity value as well, say between 0 and 100. By doing so, we also circumvent the need of the opposite word, "mean," since these two words are just different extremes of the same quantity.

Quote
I did: sarcasm.  One cannot have a sarcasitic math equation.


It's not like sarcasm is actually of any use, but yes, you can have a sarcastic math equation if so desired. Have some symbol somewhere to indicate that it is intended to be sarcastic, and there you go. (and this is really all that sarcasm is; it is more or less explicit in the sentence, just sometimes a bit hidden, so don't tell me that "this isn't real sarcasm" or some crap like that :D)

This stuff I don't need to argue much on, as you will find the same things in any semantics textbook.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2002, 09:06:22 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Knight Templar

  • Stealth
  • 212
  • I'm a magic man, I've got magic hands.
can you give an example of a sarcastic math problem? ppllllllllllllleaaaaaaaaaasssssseeeeee !!?
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Anaz

  • 210
ahhh!! You are making my head hurt!!!
Arrr. I'm a pirate.

AotD, DatDB, TVWP, LM. Ph34r.

You WILL go to warpstorm...

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
uhh...

1/G(x) has an infinite number of zeros.

(but actually it has none! there are an infinite number of places where the limit goes to zero, but no actual zeros! get it? hahahaHAhaHAhAHa...hahah...ha... :nervous: )
« Last Edit: October 05, 2002, 10:29:50 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

  • Atankharz'ythi
  • 211
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Not really; every single language out there follows the exact same conventions as far as the meanings go, because they are all based on the same thing: common human experience. (and you can ask a linguist for the details) I agree that the particular one I gave there was a poor example in certain ways, but my point still stands.
1) No they don't, or learning a new language would merely be a matter of learning new sets of words to substitute for current ones in a one-to-one relationship.  Beleive me, I do have some clue what I'm talking about. :wink:  2)  Your point does not stand at all, it is precisely what is under contest.  D'uh. :rolleyes:;)

Quote
The meanings may be "dynamic," but discrete (or if continuous, can be represented as a real number),
1)  The meaning of a word is determined only in its context, including, but not limited to, its grammatical context, emotive context, topical context, and extra-linguistic context(s).  To speak of them as discrete in the sense you intend is higly misleading, since in any particular contextual situation, the word's "meaning" is being instantised in a way that can never be precisely reproduced in any other situation, ever.  You cannot enumerate the meaning/s of a word, for every time a word is used, it acquires a new shade of meaning.  2)  A real number is an exact, unchanging quantity.  How can a real number represent an amorphous range? (Indeed, "range" itself is only a metaphor in discussing this topic, for there is no set of dimensions in linguistic meaning.)

Quote
and can thus be reduced a multitude of equivalent logical statements. I can certainly reduce "break" into simpler components; its individual meanings are distinct and the word can thus be subdivided into 10 or so parts, each of which carry a more definite meaning, and these can then be reduced to a bunch of logical statements.
 :lol:  As contexts intersect and linguistic situations emerge, certain linguistic expressions are called into play.  The precise meaning at that intersection is determined by the intersection, and the expressions used are assigned their meanings by the intersecting contexts.  At the intersection points, language brings into use such expressions as can be made to fit the context/s, not the other way around.  Thus, a word does not have "10 or so" precise meanings, or even an infinite number of meanings, because the meanings are not, strictly speaking, properties of the words at all.  (In case you're wondering, I assume no credit for this brief account, since I am lifting it directly from current linguisitic theory.)

Quote
Where do you think logical semantics comes from? :p This field is all about breaking down linguistic statements into logical statements, and yes, it works.
 Of course it works.  Logical semantics is conducted precisely on the premise of finding out exactly what the meaning assigned to a particular expression was in a given situation.  
Quote
Even computer programming languages are equally as much "languages" as any of the ones in common human use.
 Actually, no.  That they are called "languages" reflects upon the fact that they were christened by computer programmers, who, being normal human beings, were using metaphor as an intrinsic part of the language.  Computer "languages" do not meet the criteria for language, and might more properly be called something like "mathematical function execution sets."

Quote
True/False/indet/etc.
+/-
Iteration
If/then/else
ZF set theory axioms

That should cover most things.
 Really? :lol:  So use those functions (I'll not even raise a fuss right now about differentiation between logic and mathamatics) to explain the meaning of "under" in the sentence "I studied under David Stewart," in comparision to the meaning of "under" in "Ivan worked under atrocious pressure."

Quote
False. Every single one of those is quantitive. We will examine the first one to get the idea. Nice is opposite of whatever, mean, so it can be considered 0 as opposed to 1. Already we have a true/false quantity.
 Antonymity is not the same as mathematical negativity, any more that synonymity is the same as mathematical equivalency. :rolleyes: Such as description of the situation is a gross caricature.  Let's assume one particular meaning of the word "nice" to be in effect for the moment, to which "mean" is the antonym.  The relationship between the words is not binary, but more akin to analogue.  The actual quality of the person in question is whatever it is (at that moment), and lets say that in can even be fitted somewhere onto the greyscale between the polar opposites of nice and mean.  How a particular person might describe the individual in question is dependent entirely on their evaluative perspective. Nestorian Christians living in Persia described Hulaku Khan as magnanimous, wise, and of marvellously high character (and by the standards of the day, it seems he was), whereas we today would doubtless describe him as cruel.  Where nice ends and mean begins is not set in any way, but a matter of contextual perspective.

But this constrained version we have just been using of the meaning of nice is not a true description of the situation.  Someone may be quite nice in one respect, and not in another, and what is meant by calling him nice is dependent on the speaker's relationship to him in these respects, experience of him, and intended area of evaluative context for the statement.  So obviously our simple greyscale between two points fails to account for the situation here, for person A may find person B quite nice about fixing cars but despicably mean when it comes to interior decoration, and her evaluation of him will be affected by what she is refering to when she speaks, the applicability of the various qualities of his nature that she has experienced to her context of speaking, and so on.  Person C might describe B in quite a different way than A, even at the same time, if her context of speaking was different.

As we bring in fuller and fuller understandings of the context of a given speech-event, the contextual influences contributing to the meaning of the expressions involved grows ever more complex.

Quote
What exactly defines "nice" in common usage? We need a precise statement such as this: a person is said to nice if he or she responds to stimuli in category x1 with actions in category x2 under certain given conditions. (the details need to be filled in of course, but this is the general idea)
 I'm afraid the devil is in the details, and he is a very malevolent devil indeed.  As has been said, the meaning assigned to a word by the larger web of context/s is a function of the context/s.  As an embodiment of the context/s, the word does not have a precise meaning to be stated.

Quote
Now, it is easy to see that "nice" actually has a number of meanings; among them are any level of intensity of "nice." (somewhat nice, nice, very nice, etc.) To remove this ambiguity, "nice" can be much further quantified by assigning an intensity value as well, say between 0 and 100. By doing so, we also circumvent the need of the opposite word, "mean," since these two words are just different extremes of the same quantity.
 As said above, modern linguistics points out how meaning is not a property of words, but rather that the words are embodiments of meaning.  Linguistic expressions have their usefulness precisely because of their flexibility, because of the ambiguity you wish to remove.  The idea that one could discretely digitise this is just plain funny. :lol:  What happens when the 102nd person enters the room and we have to describe his level of niceness?  Then we suddenly find that our 101 levels of niceness do not correspond to the reality we are trying so desperately to pin down.  Perhaps if we expand it from a mere 0-100 to a range of values sufficient to accomodate every person who has ever or will ever live?  Well, firstly the quantity is unknown, so it would be imposssible to know where to position people, and secondly the niceness of a person is not a simple value: a person might be nice in one way, not at all in another, and somewhat nice in a third, and so on.  So how are we to classify him on our grand scale?  Beyond this, what if I wasn't talking about nice as a quality of people, but of nice as a property of interior design, or of food, or of a situational development?  The antonym in each case is something quite different, making your zero pole of the digital scale correspond to entirely different things in each case.  Not exactly precise, is that?

But beyond these niggling, though very telling problems with your system, the whole premise upon which it is constructed is faulty.  This (flawed) attempt to quantify "nice" exists only by overlooking the fundamental need to demostrate how "nice" can be given quantitative values in the first place.  It is the same sort of problem that undermines utilitarian ethics: how do you measure goodness, happiness, rightness, or in our case, niceness?  Where is the 50% mark?

Quote
It's not like sarcasm is actually of any use, but yes, you can have a sarcastic math equation if so desired. Have some symbol somewhere to indicate that it is intended to be sarcastic, and there you go. (and this is really all that sarcasm is; it is more or less explicit in the sentence, just sometimes a bit hidden, so don't tell me that "this isn't real sarcasm" or some crap like that)
 Sarcasm is the employment of words by language such that the apparent meaning being embodied by them is at odds with the actual meaning.  Sarcasm exists precisely in the incongruity between stated and actual meaning.  Adding a symbol to indicate sarcasm would be precisely a statement, and thus would in that moment cease to be sarcasm.  "I am SO happy," would become merely "I am not so happy."  The sarcastic element is destroyed by any attempt to state it.

Quote
This stuff I don't need to argue much on, as you will find the same things in any semantics textbook.
:rolleyes::lol:
« Last Edit: October 06, 2002, 01:53:15 pm by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

The Scroll of Atankharzim | FS2 syntax highlighting

 

Offline Killfrenzy

  • Slaughter-class cruiser
  • 210
  • Randomly Existing
Oh just give SQ his diploma! Maybe then he'll shut up! :D:D:lol:
Death has more impact than life, for everyone dies, but not everyone lives. [/b]
-Tomoe Hotaru (Sailor Saturn
------------
Founder of Shadows of Lylat

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Quote
1) No they don't, or learning a new language would merely be a matter of learning new sets of words to substitute for current ones in a one-to-one relationship.  Beleive me, I do have some clue what I'm talking about.  2)  Your point does not stand at all, it is precisely what is under contest.  D'uh.


I will admit that I am no expert on this, but this does not exactly require a linguistics degree to understand. :D

Quote
The meaning of a word is determined only in its context, including, but not limited to, its grammatical context, emotive context, topical context, and extra-linguistic context(s).  To speak of them as discrete in the sense you intend is higly misleading, since in any particular contextual situation, the word's "meaning" is being instantised in a way that can never be precisely reproduced in any other situation, ever.


Why so? I say that the meaning can indeed be precisely reproduced in any situation, because if it was not so, then words would be totally useless, since each one could mean anything. The fact that we are using words to represent ideas right now and the other guy is able to interpret the words reasonably well means that this is probably not the case.

Quote
You cannot enumerate the meaning/s of a word, for every time a word is used, it acquires a new shade of meaning.


So...how do you think that dictionaries are compiled? :p

Quote
2)  A real number is an exact, unchanging quantity.  How can a real number represent an amorphous range? (Indeed, "range" itself is only a metaphor in discussing this topic, for there is no set of dimensions in linguistic meaning.)


um...maybe using a function that returns the intensity? If there is no set of dimensions in linguistic meaning, then linguistic meaning would not exist as an objective quantity, so what you are trying to say is that languages are meaningless? That may be so, but at the moment I don't think we have any better way of symbolizing ideas.

Quote
As contexts intersect and linguistic situations emerge, certain linguistic expressions are called into play.  The precise meaning at that intersection is determined by the intersection, and the expressions used are assigned their meanings by the intersecting contexts.  At the intersection points, language brings into use such expressions as can be made to fit the context/s, not the other way around.  Thus, a word does not have "10 or so" precise meanings, or even an infinite number of meanings, because the meanings are not, strictly speaking, properties of the words at all.  (In case you're wondering, I assume no credit for this brief account, since I am lifting it directly from current linguisitic theory.)


You see though, when you say that "they are not properties of the word at all," you are also saying that all words mean the same thing, namely, anything. The very fact that meanings exist when put into context, or combinations of words, directly implies that parts of the meanings exist in those words. Otherwise, what would be the point of language in the first place? Every sentence would have its own unique word. :p If you like, you can of course use "contexts" in place of "words" (just assign a number to every context), but it will amount to the same thing in the end.

Quote
Of course it works.  Logical semantics is conducted precisely on the premise of finding out exactly what the meaning assigned to a particular expression was in a given situation.


And if the meaning assigned to a particular expression exists, the meaning is still fixed. Change the meanings given by words to those of expressions, contexts, paragraphs, or whatever else if you want, but the meanings would still remain fixed for a language to exist in the first place.

Quote
Actually, no.  That they are called "languages" reflects upon the fact that they were christened by computer programmers, who, being normal human beings, were using metaphor as an intrinsic part of the language.  Computer "languages" do not meet the criteria for language, and might more properly be called something like "mathematical function execution sets."


In other words, languages. :p If this merely a metaphor, what is the meaning of the original word? And what are these "criteria for language?" A language is basically just a set of symbols (along with usage and transformation rules) for the representation of abstract ideas. Anything that can represent ideas symbolically would qualify, even a "mathematical function execution set.".

Quote
Really? So use those functions (I'll not even raise a fuss right now about differentiation between logic and mathamatics) to explain the meaning of "under" in the sentence "I studied under David Stewart," in comparision to the meaning of "under" in "Ivan worked under atrocious pressure."


These are pretty much the same core functions used by most programming languages out there, and it is certainly possible to program the meanings of either statement into a computer. Both sentences can be restated into something more definite for our purposes here. The first is essentially "I studied and Stewart was my teacher during this," if that is what it's supposed to mean. (it could mean a bunch of other things, too) The second can also be several things, but these two seemed likely to me: "Ivan worked while a physical force was acting on a part of him" or "Ivan worked while his brain was in a state of stress." We thus have at least two meanings of "under," and there are of course many more; they can all be grouped together by at least one certain classification system (the word under) and likely many more, but the important thing is any one of them will work. Therefore, we can change "under" definition number X to a number of other words without changing the meaning. Since each definition has its own unique set of meanings (with a specified context), they can be so partitioned.

Also, math can be considered a subset of logic if the axioms of arithmetic and iteration are assumed, which was done there.

Quote
Antonymity is not the same as mathematical negativity, any more that synonymity is the same as mathematical equivalency.


Yes it is, along with a number of other meanings that can also be reduced to positive/negative statements of sorts, but that does not rule out this one. Furthermore, any one of the concepts can likely be used to represent all of the other things. None alone qualify as an elementary base - they all do - but any can be used as such. And of course, if you want to be purposely ambiguous, so that things only make sense in "context," you could just have everything attached to the same symbol anyway.

Quote
Such as description of the situation is a gross caricature.  Let's assume one particular meaning of the word "nice" to be in effect for the moment, to which "mean" is the antonym.  The relationship between the words is not binary, but more akin to analogue.  The actual quality of the person in question is whatever it is (at that moment), and lets say that in can even be fitted somewhere onto the greyscale between the polar opposites of nice and mean. How a particular person might describe the individual in question is dependent entirely on their evaluative perspective. Nestorian Christians living in Persia described Hulaku Khan as magnanimous, wise, and of marvellously high character (and by the standards of the day, it seems he was), whereas we today would doubtless describe him as cruel.  Where nice ends and mean begins is not set in any way, but a matter of contextual perspective.


What is your point? You keep restricting this to individual words, but those are of little importance here; the ideas carried by them is what we are concerned with. The fact remains that it can be set so. (actually, it must be set so even today for the language to mean anything) If you like, the "contextual perspectives" can be broken down instead of the words, but the fact remains that the meanings still exist for the reason given above. Axioms are decided upon so that the results will be the same, and even in language, such a system exists (it may be complicated, but that doesn't mean much).

Quote
Person C might describe B in quite a different way than A, even at the same time, if her context of speaking was different.


In that case, they are not saying the same thing, and we can thus seperate the meanings.

Quote
I'm afraid the devil is in the details, and he is a very malevolent devil indeed.  As has been said, the meaning assigned to a word by the larger web of context/s is a function of the context/s.  As an embodiment of the context/s, the word does not have a precise meaning to be stated.


Okay, replace "word" with "context," and there you go; you still have a system of partitioning. :D

Quote
As said above, modern linguistics points out how meaning is not a property of words, but rather that the words are embodiments of meaning.


That is exactly the same thing as a property of words. :p The properties are only readily apparent in groups, but the elements do have properties, or the whole would have no properties either.

Quote
Linguistic expressions have their usefulness precisely because of their flexibility, because of the ambiguity you wish to remove.  The idea that one could discretely digitise this is just plain funny. What happens when the 102nd person enters the room and we have to describe his level of niceness?  Then we suddenly find that our 101 levels of niceness do not correspond to the reality we are trying so desperately to pin down.  Perhaps if we expand it from a mere 0-100 to a range of values sufficient to accomodate every person who has ever or will ever live?  Well, firstly the quantity is unknown, so it would be imposssible to know where to position people, and secondly the niceness of a person is not a simple value: a person might be nice in one way, not at all in another, and somewhat nice in a third, and so on.  So how are we to classify him on our grand scale?  Beyond this, what if I wasn't talking about nice as a quality of people, but of nice as a property of interior design, or of food, or of a situational development?  The antonym in each case is something quite different, making your zero pole of the digital scale correspond to entirely different things in each case.  Not exactly precise, is that?


No no; when I said 1-100, I meant a continuum in that interval. Since "niceness," as you said, needs at least one more element, we can further break it down into a number of other words. We classify the person by the same methods I gave earlier: see how the person responds to various precise actions. Based on the response, it can be determined how "nice" the person is in some given sense, or an average, or whatever else. Such distinctions must exist, no matter how subtle they may be, or, as I said earlier, words (and heck, all language) would be absolutely meaningless, since anything would mean anything else. If this cannot be done (which is quite possible), that means that the concept of "nice" (under any context) is relative and therefore nonsensical.

Quote
But beyond these niggling, though very telling problems with your system, the whole premise upon which it is constructed is faulty.  This (flawed) attempt to quantify "nice" exists only by overlooking the fundamental need to demostrate how "nice" can be given quantitative values in the first place.  It is the same sort of problem that undermines utilitarian ethics: how do you measure goodness, happiness, rightness, or in our case, niceness?  Where is the 50% mark?


Very simple: it is arbitrarily defined to be somewhere. It does not matter where, so long as there is a relative point from where everything else can be gauged. The very fact that an idea exists means that it must be quantitative. All quantities are qualititative and all qualities are quantitative; either property can be used to represent ideas.

Quote
Sarcasm is the employment of words by language such that the apparent meaning being embodied by them is at odds with the actual meaning.  Sarcasm exists precisely in the incongruity between stated and actual meaning.  Adding a symbol to indicate sarcasm would be precisely a statement, and thus would in that moment cease to be sarcasm.  "I am SO happy," would become merely "I am not so happy."  The sarcastic element is destroyed by any attempt to state it.


That seeming incongruity is exactly the symbol that indicates sarcasm, and it is no less a symbol than an explicit marking somewhere would be. All aspects of language are such symbols.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2002, 09:53:08 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Sesquipedalian

  • Atankharz'ythi
  • 211
Most of this last post reduces to one primary argument, based on a common error of people initially encountering modern linguistic theory: if meaning is not fixed, but contextual, then words can mean anything, and therefore mean nothing.  This is not surprising, since my posts up to this point have largely been concerned with pointing out the flexibility and ambiguity of expression, and have thus quite naturally not stressed the other side of the coin so much.  Probably the best way to proceed is simply to describe the full picture.

We exist as linguistic beings, embodying our experience through language.  Every linguistic event occurs as an attempt to embody meaning/s arising from the context/s we are in.  The context/s are endlessly varied, for no two contextual situations are ever identical in this spatio-temporal world, depending on everything from the will of the speaker, through spatial conditions and temporally based experience, to emotive states, levels of attention or distraction, what was last eaten for dinner, and so on (indeed, we are always unaware of nearly all the contextual influences acting in any given linguistic event).  The meaning/s arising out of the context/s are unique to that situation, but the purpose of language is to embody the meaning/s sufficiently well to communicate them to another human being.  These embodiments are always approximations of the original meaning/s, and language employs its forms of expression in order to approximate the original meaning/s in this way.  The language has at its disposal a wide array of possible forms of expression and brings them into play to do so.  The language assigns an expression its parameters, and brings it into play when the meaning arising from the contextual situation falls within those parameters. The parameters of an expression are not hard, however, nor are they exclusive.  Bounds on an expression may be stretched, and they are fuzzy.  They may overlap with those of other expressions (which allows synonymity).  Because any expression is defined by its open-ended parameters, not a discreet "point" of meaning, they are of necessity ambiguous, though not absolutely fluid.  It is only by painting with a broad brush that language can function at all -- remove the ambiguity, and language cannot function.  Meaning is assigned to an expression by the language in regard to the contextual meaning, according to the rules and bounds the language imposes upon it.  Thus, expressions cannot mean absolutely anything, but only anything within the bounds of their applicability.

You asked me about dictionary entries.  They are attempts to identify the parameters of meaning/s a word can be used to embody.  In effect, a dictionary definition tries to paint a broad stroke sketch of the sorts meaning/s a word is used for by the langauge.

You might be affronted by the statement "remove the ambiguity, and the language cannot function."  If so, allow me to illustrate with a very classic example.  Take the word "leaf."  As a noun, it is among the most difficult examples to use for making my point, since nouns are supposed to point to concrete objects.  It is because "leaf" is ambiguous, because it blankets over a multitude of discreet particulars, that the word has any use to us at all.  The only way to remove the ambiguity would be to assign a noun to each and every leaf of a plant, each and every leaf of a book, each and every leaf of an extendable dining room table, and each and every leaf of every sort in existence.  But the impracticality of this would bar us from ever communicting anything.  It is the generalisation and resultant ambiguity that makes the term useful as a linguistic expression, allowing us to approximate reality.  As another example, take the verb "defeat."  This verb does not have an very broad semantic range, and yet "to defeat an enemy army," "to defeat a logic problem," and "to defeat a craving" all mean different things.  The ambiguity of the verb is the source of its usefulness.  The same can be said of every form of expression a language has.

So you ask me what my point is, and I tell you: ambiguity cannot be eliminated from a language, or is ceases to be a language.  Any project to eliminate the ambiguity of language, of which your idea of a mathematical language is a very radical (and fairly innovative) example, cannot end in anything but the destruction of language.  Reduce language to nothing but math, and you are left with nothing but math -- language will have disappeared.

This point is demonstrated quite clearly in the issue of "under."  Although you did not produce any mathematical expression to equate the linguistic expression "under" as challenged, you did attempt to restate the meanings of the two sentences.  Yet the restatements are also subject to the same process, for each word, if questioned regarding its "precise" meaning, can be eliminated from the sentence in such as way as to try to make the meaning of the word in this context clearer.  The process would be never-ending if we wished to pursue it, ever trying to define a word by using other words.  The reason for this (and indeed it is this observation which largely contributed to modern linguistic theory) is that the ambiguous nature of the words means that we can only give synonyms or synonymous descriptions which overlap the sematic range of the word in question, until the parameters of usage prescribed to the term are closely enough approximated to allow the person a good idea of what they are.  This is, of course, very different from mathematical definition, where all definition is a matter of absolute identity, of equivalence in the strictest sense possible.  In dealing with language, we do not deal in absolute equivalence, but similarity.

Three things remain to be said:

First, re: partitioning: you will see in the above that seperation of meaning/s is obviously still included in our understanding of language.  But the lines of division are not set in stone -- they move, blur, and sometimes even collapse.

Second, re: the "50%" mark: perhaps I did not elucidate my objection clearly enough.  We have no measuring stick for niceness.  Say I give a friend a sweater, and I give another friend five dollars.  Which was more nice?  How do we measure it?  Or again, what is the absolute maximum of niceness?  To what do we point as the embodiment of absolute niceness?  Perhaps if we can find that, and also find somthing to point to as the embodiment of the absolute lack of niceness, we will be able to devise a method for measuring degrees between them.  But unless we can do so, we cannot identify anything that lies 50% of the way between them.  We cannot call niceness quantitative until we have some way to measure it as a quantity.  Gravity can be measured, and is thus quantitative, but how do we measure "nice?"

Third, re: sarcasm: no, no, no, the incongruity lies in the relationship between the symbols and the meaning.  I understand what you are trying to say, but think of it this way:  adding a "sarcasm symbol" would be roughly analogous to placing brackets around a mathematical expression and putting a negative sign out in front of it all.  But in so doing, I am only negating the statement.  Sarcasm is not the negating of the statement; negation does that. ("I am so happy," becoming "I am not so happy.")  Sarcasm is the using of the symbols -- all the symbols, collectively -- to communicate the opposite of what they should communicate.  So the statement is negated, but precisely on a level other than the symbolic one.  Sarcasm is thus a relationship between symbols and meaning, not a symbol itself.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2002, 11:29:25 am by 448 »
Sesqu... Sesqui... what?
Sesquipedalian, the best word in the English language.

The Scroll of Atankharzim | FS2 syntax highlighting

 

Offline Fry_Day

  • 28
Did anyone notice that this discussion is getting a wee bit out of hand?
I mean, Jesus Christ! You have enough text for a frickin' thesis in your argument!