[KARMA]

there was this little idea floating inside my mind.....
actually with the source code release the scp can modify and freely distribute its changes, but it isn't possible - i think- to distribute a working game since the art is copyrighted
but if we manage -in someway- to substitute the artwork, making a base freely usable by the community it would be possible to release each single MOD like a standalone game
the point is that there are a lot of things that should be replaced, not only the interface (that would ba anyway a big step), and most of the mods use original ships/textures, but anyway it would be in my opinion an interesting thing with a lot of future possibilities
i have too much to do to do this alone, but if 2-3 or more guys with photoshop and good skills (consider that interface is more related to for example building web pages than to drawing textures) would help me with the artwork and other 3-4 or more guys would like to participate about the hidden dirty work it probably wouldn't take too long to replace all the menus interface nor it wouldn't be too time requiring for the singles

[aldo_14]

It would be very difficult to actually replace evrything...because you'd need to replace those interface images which use a sort of b&white map to show where the animations / buttons are displayed (the ones ending in 'M')... on the plus side, that very thing can be used as an alpha mask type thingie so youy CAN create completely new interface work.  The main problem would be a/ the sheer volume of stuff (THOUSANDS of images required) to do, and b/actually identifiyng wthat each (pcx, etc) filename was used for.

[RandomTiger]

Nice idea, but I would hold on it for the moment.
Apparently we can legally distribute the demo data which will have a lot of the interface stuff in it.

There is a slow ongoing investigation into getting fs2_open to use the demo code for these kind of purposes.

What we really need is a new hi res texture pack for the ships.

[Killfrenzy]

The interface (as far as I'm concerned) is the single biggest ***** of FreeSpace 2. It's big, ugly and just doesn't care about your feelings.......how TBP lads can stand it, let alone get theirs to work is beyond me!

[RandomTiger]

Killfrenzy: Any chance of an overview of your difficults with it for the record?

[KARMA]

about the tech part...i know that there are a lot of images...first time i gave a look at it i was frightened by the amount of stuff there:)
but i was thinking that with photoshop you can build a complete image for a screen and, if you have a precise reference (the m files) you can slice it and have the photoshop saving each slice individually (this is used obviously for web desing)
the different resolutions can be obtained just resizing the starting image (slices will be resized too...i think:p), we may also do a version higher than 1024x768 w/o loosing too much time
the probs would be the batch conversion of the images to pcx (i'm not sure i can save the slices directly as pcx), to have the precise slices, to convert to the right file format, the amount of screens, to substitute the vpfiles and so long...i never said it would be easy....but with a certain number of people working at it and sharing the wotrk it wouldn't probably and hopefully too pain in the ass...if done it must be a community project
obviously i'm thinking also about something very simple with the max amount possible of shared images, much much more simple than the original interface, the main menu for example could probably be replaced by a simple console, most of the anis would be substitute with just one frame(static) anis, or at least with flashing buttons (example: to access at game options menu from the main menu there is an officer at the computers that rotate, this may be substitute with just a button that flash if you pass the mouse over it...) and so long

btw the demo would probably work better since there are all the artworks, not only the interface.....
just a little problem...if i remember well with demo you can't host dedicated servers (and - but not sure- you can't also host tcp/ip games too...and there weren't some little differences in the game engine?)

[RandomTiger]

I'd be very interested in that. I learn a little bit from adding support for 640x480 to the DX8 branch. Once the interface is done, the rest should be trivial.

However I cant go above 1280x1024 without problems, doh!
Perhaps when I get a new monitor (when-ever that is).

Without streching the fonts might get too small though.
I can check the other members of the DX team and see what monitor limitations they have.

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by KARMA
there was this little idea floating inside my mind.....
actually with the source code release the scp can modify and freely distribute its changes, but it isn't possible - i think- to distribute a working game since the art is copyrighted
but if we manage -in someway- to substitute the artwork, making a base freely usable by the community it would be possible to release each single MOD like a standalone game
the point is that there are a lot of things that should be replaced, not only the interface (that would ba anyway a big step), and most of the mods use original ships/textures, but anyway it would be in my opinion an interesting thing with a lot of future possibilities
i have too much to do to do this alone, but if 2-3 or more guys with photoshop and good skills (consider that interface is more related to for example building web pages than to drawing textures) would help me with the artwork and other 3-4 or more guys would like to participate about the hidden dirty work it probably wouldn't take too long to replace all the menus interface nor it wouldn't be too time requiring for the singles

Well with the info on FS2 being "freeware", so to speak, I don't think that'll be a problem.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by RandomTiger
Killfrenzy: Any chance of an overview of your difficults with it for the record?

I don't know what difficulties Killfrenzy has had, but I'll go on record as saying that the 2d interface on Freespace2 is the slowest, most sluggish, slothlike experience I've ever dealt with. My machine has more than enough raw horsepower, its well tuned, the 3d positively screams. 2d in every other game zooms. 2d in Freespace? CRAWL. DRAG. CHOKE.

I don't think KARMA's idea is a bad one either. You're thinking about the source end of things, RT, which is groovy, but he's thinking about the total conversion mod end of things.  One thing that would do well to make both source hacker and total conversion modders happy is to have someone go through the code and document what's there, figure out what does what and why it does it and why it does it that way.

[RandomTiger]

The interface is slow because of the engine. Im going to haev a stab at sorting that out in DX. By the looks of it the engine is not really built well to handle multiple animations on the go at once which of course is what the main hall is all about.

I think you may have missed my point that the interface in the demo might be legally distributable.

[CP5670]

Would it take a lot of work to completely seperate the 2D and 3D components of the game? (so that everything is done in strict 2D until the actual flying starts) I think that the menu problems are all caused by the game displaying menus as pseudo-3D scenes of sorts through hardware.

[RandomTiger]

OK, one more time.......

DirectDraw doesnt exist, not that I'd want to use it if it did.

All the polyons in the game are drawn as 'strict 2D', 2D and 3D!

Its just not relevent.

[CP5670]

Wait, what is it that the usual windows GUI uses for displaying stuff? Basically, what I mean is that the game should not even activate the 3D driver until you actually start playing and instead just display animations, text and other such stuff like normal (non-game) programs do.

[RandomTiger]

WinGUI uses windows functions, possiblity some of them linked to direct draw.

OK, you download DX8.1 SDK, have a look and tell me what you think should be done. Look for Transformed and Lit vertices.

Its not slow because its going through D3D.

[CP5670]

I don't know anything about this stuff actually; I am just wondering what the possible causes could be that make the interface respond so slowly and have all the strange artifacts on certain video cards. (Descent 3 also has the same problems, but that is the only other game where I have noticed this)

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by RandomTiger
WinGUI uses windows functions, possiblity some of them linked to direct draw.

OK, you download DX8.1 SDK, have a look and tell me what you think should be done. Look for Transformed and Lit vertices.

Its not slow because its going through D3D.

The SDK is circa 200Megs, is it not?  

(It's the main reason I'v not even attempted it...I'm intending to finally make a start over my summer hols next year)

I think it was said somewhere that FS uses prelit flat polys for 2d stuff (like a mapped plane), wasn't it?

[CP5670]

Yeah, that is what I was saying; the 2D stuff is currently pretty much done in 3D, and this is probably what is causing all the problems mentioned earlier.

[RandomTiger]

Originally posted by CP5670
I don't know anything about this stuff actually; I am just wondering what the possible causes could be that make the interface respond so slowly

Im in the code, been working on it for over a month, trust my judement. Its the ani's that are slowing everything down. Hopefully I'll be able to sort this out on the DX8 branch (if we ever get that damn alpha bug sorted).

and have all the strange artifacts on certain video cards. (Descent 3 also has the same problems, but that is the only other game where I have noticed this)

What effects? Is this something other than the GF4 problem with the font and ani's?

[vyper]

I haven't read the entire thread (its 1.05am where I am - bit late for me)  but I just should say:
Practicality. We're talking about hundreds of files here, all having to be placed exactly onto screen coordinates, all limited to certain colours, etc.
Its a good idea, and it'd look very cool. God knows, I'd like a new hall for the Hades class. However, I doubt this would be doable. But god speed anyway.

[RandomTiger]

God damn!