[mikhael]

Yeah, what ZB said.

Also, the ruling is that Microsoft has to include the Sun Java runtimes with some (as yet unspecified, I believe) version of Windows. Microsoft never prevented the use of the Sun JVM, they just produced a competing JVM that was incompatible in some ways.

[Styxx]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
smacks Styxx

[SIZE=8]JAVASCRIPT IS NOT JAVA[/SIZE] *

Javascript IS a form of Java. It is a subset of the original Sun API created by Netscape, with a few modifications and a lot of aditions to handle dynamic content inside a web browser. Most of the basic J2SE API is in there, even though most of the people don't use it.

* Smacks Zylon *

[Stealth]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
smacks Styxx

[SIZE=8]JAVASCRIPT IS NOT JAVA[/SIZE] *

no need to yell at him dude!

[ZylonBane]

Stealth, see Styxx's response. Apparently I didn't yell enough.

And apparently he didn't follow the link I provided. So here's another one--

Google sez, "Javascript Not Java!"

[Styxx]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Stealth, see Styxx's response. Apparently I didn't yell enough.

And apparently he didn't follow the link I provided.

I followed your link, but if you had worked with Java for several years as I have, you'd notice that, even though Javascript is not a part of the original Java core created and provided by Sun it is clearly built on top of a subset of the original language, incorporates large portions of the same API, and can perform a good deal of the tasks that are performed through your standard Java Applets. Also, there is much more to Java than applets - JSP, Servlets, J2EE, and more are all based/built upon Java. Your little page also fails to inform that Java "programs" themselves do not run alone, they require a Java Virtual Machine - which is embedded into the program itself in some cases. Anyone who works with Java has little to no difficulty in working with Javascript.

Apparently you have no working knowledge of any of the technologies, and just posted the first link you found on Google. Javascript is clearly a form of Java, disregarding any API or runtime structure differences.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Styxx

Apparently you have no working knowledge of any of the technologies, and just posted the first link you found on Google. Javascript is clearly a form of Java, disregarding any API or runtime structure differences.

Having a working knowledge of the technologies involved, Styxx, you're wrong.

It is NOT a subset of Java, but a scripting language intended to be C-like (hence the distinct similarities with Java which was intended to be C-like as well). Both Netscape and Sun, when they announced the birth of the new language called it 'a "complement" to both HTML and Java.' That position by Sun is important: they did not, and do not consider them to be the same or offshoot languages.

An important thing to note is that Javascript doesn't, and never has, run through a JVM of any sort ever, but its own, language specific, scripting engines (be they server or client side).

A useful contrast is Visual Basic vs Visual Basic for Applications vs VisualBasicScript. VBA was created as a slimmed down subset of VB, specifically for automating tasks in Microsoft Office. When IIS3 was created, they again slimmed down VBA to become VBScript. The pedigree is a direct and documented line of descent (and a descent it was, from bad to worse). This is in direct contrast to the Java/Javascript "pedigrees".

[Bobboau]

it's a scripting language baised on Java, I think...
(what I've always assumed, don't know)

[ZylonBane]

Bobboau, you're not helping.

Originally posted by Styxx
even though Javascript is not a part of the original Java core created and provided by Sun it is clearly built on top of a subset of the original language

By this argument, most of the languages in use today are actually C.

In any case, from the official Netscape Core Javascript Guide--

JavaScript and Java

JavaScript and Java are similar in some ways but fundamentally different in others. The JavaScript language resembles Java but does not have Java's static typing and strong type checking. JavaScript supports most Java expression syntax and basic control-flow constructs.
In contrast to Java's compile-time system of classes built by declarations, JavaScript supports a runtime system based on a small number of data types representing numeric, Boolean, and string values. JavaScript has a prototype-based object model instead of the more common class-based object model. The prototype-based model provides dynamic inheritance; that is, what is inherited can vary for individual objects. JavaScript also supports functions without any special declarative requirements. Functions can be properties of objects, executing as loosely typed methods.

JavaScript is a very free-form language compared to Java. You do not have to declare all variables, classes, and methods. You do not have to be concerned with whether methods are public, private, or protected, and you do not have to implement interfaces. Variables, parameters, and function return types are not explicitly typed.

Java is a class-based programming language designed for fast execution and type safety. Type safety means, for instance, that you can't cast a Java integer into an object reference or access private memory by corrupting Java bytecodes. Java's class-based model means that programs consist exclusively of classes and their methods. Java's class inheritance and strong typing generally require tightly coupled object hierarchies. These requirements make Java programming more complex than JavaScript authoring.

In contrast, JavaScript descends in spirit from a line of smaller, dynamically typed languages such as HyperTalk and dBASE. These scripting languages offer programming tools to a much wider audience because of their easier syntax, specialized built-in functionality, and minimal requirements for object creation.

Give up yet?

[beatspete]

(doesnt have much programing language knowledge)

Meh, i might as well have my two cens.  Win Xp really bugs me (or IE atleast), cause it wont let me play any lovely java-based games.
Perhaps i'm stating the obvious...
Yeah, i am.

Umm ...merry christmas!

[ZylonBane]

You do realize that the JVM can be downloaded, yes?

http://java.sun.com/getjava/download.html

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Give up yet?

I'm afraid he'll only be able to answer you after Christmas.

[aldo_14]

http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/1995-12/sunflash.951204.6754.html

The JavaScript language complements Java™, Sun's industry-leading object-oriented, cross-platform programming language.

Java programs and JavaScript scripts are designed to run on both clients and servers, with JavaScript scripts used to modify the properties and behavior of Java objects, so the range of live online applications that dynamically present information to and interact with users over enterprise networks or the Internet is virtually unlimited. Netscape will support Java and JavaScript in client and server products as well as programming tools and applications to make this vision a reality.

NB:  I think j# is Microsofts bastardised version of Java included in VisualStudio6.  They're already been succesfully sued by Sun before for trying to make a windows specific version of Java.

Yeah, what ZB said.

Also, the ruling is that Microsoft has to include the Sun Java runtimes with some (as yet unspecified, I believe) version of Windows. Microsoft never prevented the use of the Sun JVM, they just produced a competing JVM that was incompatible in some ways.

In my (simplistic) understanding, Sun setup Java - including the VM - to be platform independent, so any platform specific setup (i.e that prevents different O/S's from running it) is not Java.

Incidentally, Java is going to be one of the most important languages in the world over the next few decades - for example in mobile phones(communication between different architectures of MCU's, allowing standardised protocols for communications, blah).

[mikhael]

Originally posted by aldo_14

Incidentally, Java is going to be one of the most important languages in the world over the next few decades - for example in mobile phones(communication between different architectures of MCU's, allowing standardised protocols for communications, blah).

It'll be about but I just can't see it becoming BIG. Anything you can do in Java, you can do more efficiently in C++ and/or C. Java is pretty groovy, but some of the things that make it "safe" and "cross platform" also make it a bit clunky. Some of that can be mitigated by skipping the whole byte-code interpreter, but some of the groovy, super-efficient things you can do with pointers, etc are completely disallowed.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by mikhael


It'll be about but I just can't see it becoming BIG. Anything you can do in Java, you can do more efficiently in C++ and/or C. Java is pretty groovy, but some of the things that make it "safe" and "cross platform" also make it a bit clunky. Some of that can be mitigated by skipping the whole byte-code interpreter, but some of the groovy, super-efficient things you can do with pointers, etc are completely disallowed.

I know Java is a bastard in terms of optimisation (I'd rather have learned C++ in all honesty...), but it's beauty is that it's totally abstract.  It has absolutely no relation to the client architecture, so you can have the same applications running on completely different MCU's.... think of 2 mobile phones, by different manufacturers, using the same communications protocols to talk to each other (etc).  

Or using the same O/S / GUI on different versions of the same product (i.e. one which has a dedicated DAC on the circuitboard as oppossed to connected seperately, or using different memory mappings, etc).  

The principle point of Java is not that you can do it better in C/C++ (etc), but that you can do it on ANY machine without having to care about it's architecture.  And seeing as pretty much everything nowadays has some form of processor, that's pretty important IMO.    I've got a feeling you could optimise the JVM per-platform if need be (not 100% sure), and you could also use assembler and low-ish level code for the optimised critical stuff anyways.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by aldo_14
The principle point of Java is not that you can do it better in C/C++ (etc), but that you can do it on ANY machine without having to care about it's architecture.  

The PRINCIPLE is one thing. The reality is something else. You can indeed take [some, not all] java programs written on on platform X and run them on the platform Y. Usually, you won't have problems. Sometimes you will, because not all JVMs are equal, and not all architectures can support all the features of a full JVM.

Abstraction is a great and wonderful thing for code reuse and program correctness. They're just really bad for performance. Java is great--when you compile to machine specific binaries, at which point you lose most of Java's promise.

[diamondgeezer]

*sniff*

I wish we could spend every Christmas like this...

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by nuclear1


I second that.
or wait... maybe that's only cuz im 14

Bah, I'm 14 and coffee/tea are my favorite drinks! Ya gotta love a hot latte on a chilly afternoon.

[LtNarol]

I live on coffee.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by mikhael


The PRINCIPLE is one thing. The reality is something else. You can indeed take [some, not all] java programs written on on platform X and run them on the platform Y. Usually, you won't have problems. Sometimes you will, because not all JVMs are equal, and not all architectures can support all the features of a full JVM.

Abstraction is a great and wonderful thing for code reuse and program correctness. They're just really bad for performance. Java is great--when you compile to machine specific binaries, at which point you lose most of Java's promise.

Yes but is the average user going to care? Or is he just going to carry on playing Space invaders.

Java does have a lot of promise in the mobile phone market because new phones are constantly coming out. If each one uses a different OS you`ll have all kinds of problems trying to port every product to every phone (or even working out if a certain product works on your phone)

Secondly games etc. on mobile phones are a new concept. As long as no one tells the general public that Java is the bottleneck no one will notice and we can all play slow compatible games with each other.

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by Kamikaze
Ya gotta love a hot latte on a chilly afternoon.

Yes, nothing better than a hot steamy cup of coffee on the afternoon when it's 35 degrees Celsius outside and you can feel the constant drops of sweat running through your face and pouring to the ground. Refreshing.