[CP5670]

Actually if you have read some political science (which it seems that you have) you should know that the nationstate is a pretty young phenomenon who didn't start with the birth of civilizations.

yeah, the nation state is just the newest incarnation of this, but this system of competing institutions has been around since the first ones came up. My point is that it has nothing to do with Bush or the US, but it is rather an unchangeable property of the international system itself, and if you look a bit more closely you will find just about every country doing the same thing today.

Anyway....now I really gotta go to bed....see you all.

I just got up; all ready for full-night math and FRED sessions.

Ah....I knew that it would upset someone....but that wasn't my attention. Here is the thing: Bush, Hitler and Saddam all have invaded other countries. This is a violation of international law.

The current "laws" are not really laws, since they have no backing by force at all; as I have said countless times around here, "international law" is an oxymoron today and cannot be anything but one. The countries follow these "laws" (which have no enforcement at all) when they benefit from them and ignore them otherwise, and the US is no exception. Then again, there is the issue of what exactly "international law" is and who decides on it.

Oh and by the way. Where did you find the rule to invade a country just because they don't follow the UN resolutions.

The US (and anyone else) isn't going to care about enforcing the UN resolutions unless it is to their own benefit; there are some other reasons why we are doing this for our own objectives regardless of any UN rules, which were discussed earlier in the thread.

Yeah, but wait until they try to decide who the chairman will be. Or how many chairs will be on the board.

Or heck, imagine the discussion about whether to be a money-making organization, or a non-profit chairity!

rofl!

in other news 1024 people have been arested in San Fransico peace riots

exactly? nice, that's 2¹⁰.

[Bobboau]

I thought you'd like that

[Pez]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"Why are people always taking these things so damn personal. Cool down. I'm not criticizing you! I'm criticizing your goverment!"

you know I was going to make a point that if someone talks smack about you're government (or it's leaders), and you generaly suport them, you will tend to take it personaly wether you had anyhting to do with it or not,
but as I can not find anything realy bad of the same nature as a major military action involveing Sweden I don't think I will be able to,
the absolute worst I could find was some eugenics stuf around the earlyer part of this century, the fact that this is the _absolute_ worst I could find is a testomont to you're contry, and it's people.
though I didn't look that hard


now doesn't that make you feel good

You could probably find some juicystuff that Sweden did during the second WW (ex. Letting the german division Engelbrecht pass through Sweden. Another example is that the Swedish goverment knew about the killing of jews but refused to let of them into the country.)

I read your next post about Saddam being killed and that actually would be great, cause make no misstake here I just want as you that Saddam should go away but we don't agree on how that should be done.

[Stryke 9]

They're somehow connected to Swedish fish, which gum up my teeth and are pretty vile.

However, they're also the homeplace of attractive female Swedish masseusses(masseussessesses? mausseusseses?), so it all evens out.


And, ah, people who react to opposition politics like it's a direct insult to their manhood likely don't have enough actual manhood to get defensive over. Tthbt.


Someone else I can insult here?

[Bobboau]

reports that US tanks are more than 150km into Iraq, that would be about 100 miles

so far little/no resistance, I just hope this keeps up, I hope those people stay safe, I hope they don't do anything stupid

[Bobboau]

US troops have reportedly taken controle of an air port in Bamerni

[kode]

Originally posted by Pez


You could probably find some juicystuff that Sweden did during the second WW (ex. Letting the german division Engelbrecht pass through Sweden. Another example is that the Swedish goverment knew about the killing of jews but refused to let of them into the country.)

I read your next post about Saddam being killed and that actually would be great, cause make no misstake here I just want as you that Saddam should go away but we don't agree on how that should be done.

you could also take Wallenberg into account, as he saved thousands of jews from the holocaust. Choosing between being occupied by nazi-germany and remain free with the cost of letting some trains take the route through your country (the trains were going to norway, that was already occupied btw), I think the government made the right choice. And we did play a big part in rebuilding Europe afterwards.


I guess that yes, Iraq needs a democratic ruling. But I don't think that war would help this that much. What it will do however, is stir up even more anti-american feelings in that area. And in the end the US government will probably sit dumbfounded and wondering why everybody hates them...

[kode]

Originally posted by Stryke 9
They're somehow connected to Swedish fish, which gum up my teeth and are pretty vile.

However, they're also the homeplace of attractive female Swedish masseusses(masseussessesses? mausseusseses?), so it all evens out.


And, ah, people who react to opposition politics like it's a direct insult to their manhood likely don't have enough actual manhood to get defensive over. Tthbt.


Someone else I can insult here?

ahh... the infamous swedish fish... wtf is that?

[Warlock]

Originally posted by kode


I guess that yes, Iraq needs a democratic ruling. But I don't think that war would help this that much. What it will do however, is stir up even more anti-american feelings in that area. And in the end the US government will probably sit dumbfounded and wondering why everybody hates them...

I donno about that,...CNN last night interviewed a group of about 20-30 Iraqis,...all of which cheered the US for going in to remove Saddam.

But we won't know until it's done.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Stryke 9


And, ah, people who react to opposition politics like it's a direct insult to their manhood likely don't have enough actual manhood to get defensive over. Tthbt.


Someone else I can insult here?

*shrug* Or perhaps some of us have what they call. ....hmmm pride in country ? Hmmm interesting concept there.

[Exarch]

One can be proud of one's country without being in agreement with everything done by the people leading it. Country is the people, the history, the society of the whole country (and more), and if you're proud of your country, it it these things you are proud of. Not the individuals leading it. So having pride in your country does not in any way mean you can't at the same time disagree with that country's current politics.

I'm proud of my country, wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Spend several years serving my country as part of it's military because I felt it was a country worth serving. But I don't like my country's current government and most of their politics, so does this suddenly mean I'm not proud of my country? Nope, still am, I'm just not so proud of these few people in particular

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Exarch
One can be proud of one's country without being in agreement with everything done by the people leading it. Country is the people, the history, the society of the whole country (and more), and if you're proud of your country, it it these things you are proud of. Not the individuals leading it. So having pride in your country does not in any way mean you can't at the same time disagree with that country's current politics.

I'm proud of my country, wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Spend several years serving my country as part of it's military because I felt it was a country worth serving. But I don't like my country's current government and most of their politics, so does this suddenly mean I'm not proud of my country? Nope, still am, I'm just not so proud of these few people in particular

But the difference is I happen to completely agree with the war I've been expecting Saddam to come back into the seen and be removed be force for some time now.

There's of thing I don't like or agree with about Bush or various other Presidents (Utterly dispised Clinton,...course I'm not fond of ppl breaking at least 2 federal laws and still being allowed to be a president) But then again yes seeing Bush compared to Hitler kinda pissed me off and pretty much showed me someone with no clue wtf they were talking about

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Warlock


I donno about that,...CNN last night interviewed a group of about 20-30 Iraqis,...all of which cheered the US for going in to remove Saddam.

But we won't know until it's done.

20-30 people "picked" by the media hardly represent a nation/culture/community/whatever....

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Tiara




20-30 people "picked" by the media hardly represent a nation/culture/community/whatever....

LOL True but then again others here want to believe whatever they hear on the news So why not this too ?

[kode]

Originally posted by Exarch
One can be proud of one's country without being in agreement with everything done by the people leading it. Country is the people, the history, the society of the whole country (and more), and if you're proud of your country, it it these things you are proud of. Not the individuals leading it. So having pride in your country does not in any way mean you can't at the same time disagree with that country's current politics.

I'm proud of my country, wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Spend several years serving my country as part of it's military because I felt it was a country worth serving. But I don't like my country's current government and most of their politics, so does this suddenly mean I'm not proud of my country? Nope, still am, I'm just not so proud of these few people in particular

hmm... you evil dane.... what kind of subs do you have? just curious...

[CP5670]

I guess that yes, Iraq needs a democratic ruling. But I don't think that war would help this that much. What it will do however, is stir up even more anti-american feelings in that area. And in the end the US government will probably sit dumbfounded and wondering why everybody hates them...

No, it will stir up pro-American feelings there, and the EU knows this well; it is one of the major things that they want to prevent and why they have been opposing this war so virulently. If they really believed that this war would create anti-American sentiment (within Iraq, that is, not outside it) more than the opposite, do you think that they would be making such a fuss over that? heck no, they would say sure, go right ahead.

[Stunaep]

Translation of an article today in one of our newspapers:



How many nukes does Iraq have? What about USA?

How much of the world population lives in the USA?
(about 6%)

How many of they worlds resources do they use?
(about 50%)

Which country in the world has the biggest oil stockpile?
(Saudi-Arabia)

Which country in the world has the secound biggest oil stockpile?
(Iraq)

How much is spent on military every year, in the entire world?
(roughly 900000000000 $)

How much of it does USA spend?
(roughly 50%)

How many humans have died in wars after WWII?
(86 000 000)

How long has Iraq had  chemical and biological weapons?
(since the early 1980s)

Did Iraq develop these weapons on their own?
(no, they were supplied with the materials and technology by Great Britain, USA, and private corporations)

Did the US government condemn the use of gas in the Iraq-Iran war?
(no)

How many people did Saddam Hussein kill in the Halabaja city inh 1988
(5000)

How many western countries condemned that act?
(0)

How many gallons of Agent Orange was used by USA in the Vietnam war?
(17 000 000)

Has the Iraq connection with 7/11 been proved?
(no)

How many civilians were killed in the Gulf War?
(about 35000)

How many casualties did the Iraqi army inflict on the western  allies?
(0)

How many retreating Iraqi soldiers were killed by US tanks?
(6000)

How much Uranium was left in Iraq and Kuweit after the Gulf War
(about  40 tons)

According to the UN, how much did the case of cancer in Iraq grow during 1991-1994
(700%)

How much of Iraqi military strenght had USA destroyed in 1991, according to themselves?
(80%)

Are there any proof that Iraq intends to use the weapons for anything other than scaring off enemies and selfdefense?
(no)

Does Iraq pose a bigger threat to the world than it did 10 years ago?
(no)

According to the Pentagon, how many civilians can be killed in the war that begun?
(up to 10 000)

How many of them children?
(50%)

How long has the US made air-strikes against Iraq?
(11 years)

Were the US and GB in war with Iraq from december 1998 to september 1999
(no?)

How much explosives were thrown at Iraq during that time?
(20 000 000 pounds)

How many years ago was legislated UN resolution 661, setting heavy import/export regulations on Iraq?
(12)

How many children (per 1000) died in Iraq in 1989?
(38)

How many in 1999?
(131)

How many Iraqis had died due to UN sanctions in 1999?
(1 500 000)

How many of them children?
(roughly 40%)

Did Saddam order the weaponry inspectors to leave from Iraq?
(no)

How many observations did the inspectors make in november and december 1999?
(300)

In how many of them, did they encounter problems?
(5)

Were the inspectors given access to the Ba'ath HQ?
(yes)

How said in Dec. 1999 that Iraq's armaments were unprecedented during the entire modern history?
(Scott Ritter, head of the inspectors)

How much of Iraq's capability of manufacturing weapons of mass destruction had the inspectors discovered and dismantled in 1998, according to themselves?
(90%)

How many countries are known to have nuclear strike capabilty?
(8)

How many nuclear warheads does Iraq have?
(0)

How many nuclear warheads does USA have?
(over 10 000)

What country, in the history of the world has used nuclear weapons?
(USA)

Have the UN weaponry inspectors ever gotten to Israel?
(no)

Which country, do you think poses a larger threat to world peace? Iraq or USA?

[end of article]

even if some of this isn't true, still makes you think, doesn't it?

[CP5670]

Indeed, it makes me even a greater supporter of the US than I already am. If all that is true, the US is on the path to total victory and will eventually rule the world, and I want to be on the winning side. What about the rest of you?

oh and some of those questions are just funny. look at this:

How much of Iraq's capability of manufacturing weapons of mass destruction had the inspectors discovered and dismantled in 1998, according to themselves?

"according to themselves?"

[Stryke 9]

Blah, there's a difference between pride in one's country and complete inability to tolerate the very concept of anyone disagreeing with you or not being proud of your country. Narrowminded, blinkered insistence on one's own monopoly on absolute truth ain't any smarter an idea in nationalism than it is in militant racial or religious obsession.

[Stunaep]

according to the inspectors that is.