[Sandwich]

The death toll is staying at 16 so far, but there are still 10 seriously injured people in hospitals around Jerusalem.

Originally posted by Rictor
In my mind, killing people via suicide bomb or shooting them with a rifle or tank is the same thing. And yes, I am refering to the IDF killing civilians. I fully understand what Isreal is doing, though I dont support it. After WW2, with 6 million Jews dead, I'de take any steps necessary to protect my land too. However, I think that pushing around the Palestinians isn't helping anything. You claim that the Palestinians are the terrorists. Well terrorist is what big armies call little armies. If they had uniforms and guns, you'de call them an army. It just using what you've got to further your own side if the struggle. And I'm also pretty sure that however many Isrealis die in suicide bombings, more Palestinians are killed in the inevitable revenge.

I have a point to make, and please thnk about it: I don't call terrorists terrorists because they are not as well equipped as a standing army. I call them terrorists when they deliberately target unarmed civillians who are going about their lives. Suicide bombers and drive-by shootings are examples of such actions.

IIRC, there was an instance a few months (a year?) ago where a Jewish settler shot at unarmed Palestinian villagers in the area. I don't recall the details, unfortunately, but perhaps some of you do, since I'd think it was exploited to the hilt in the media. Anyway, that person was a terrorist. Had he taken a tank and started shelling homes without discrimination, he'd still be a terrorist. Now maybe he had his reasons - perhaps all his loved ones were killed in suicide bombings or something - it doesn't change the fact that what he did was an act of terrorisim. The act is what defines it, not the reasons for the act. Heck, it is the act itself that is being defined.

When there is a demonstration of Palestinians at a funeral, and they start shooting at Israeli soldiers nearby, I do not call that terrorisim - those soldiers (of which I am one) are capable of defending themselves.

When the IDF targets a vehicle full of Hamas operatives (and don't be fooled - Hamas is a terrorist organization, classified as such even by the UN), I do not equate that with an act of terrorisim. Innocent civillians are not being targeted. Known terrorists who have themselves comitted acts of terrorisim or have sent forth and supported terrorists are the targets.

Also, in such cases, "collateral damage" - bystanders being maimed and killed - is something that Israel takes very seriously, and goes to extreme efforts to avoid. However, when innocent Palestinians bystanders are hurt or killed in (helicopter) attacks on known terrorists, I do not call it terrorisim - they were not deliberately tageted. Please note the difference.

I think the world needs a referesher course on what exactly terrorisim is. Hard to believe that in the post 9/11 era, people have forgotten what terrorisim is, but with all the anti-American sentiment rising in Europe and elsewhere, I guess it's just a matter of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Originally posted by Rictor
The thing that got me about the Isreali-Palestian conflict when I looked at a map, is just how small the contested area is. I understand fighting over large pieces of land, but the difference between the current borders and the contested borders is like 20km

The width of Israel is... well, here:

[vyper]

This is yet another tragic event that will cost the lives of many more people by way of its repercussions.  

[Turnsky]

damn, the situation's getting pretty bad over there, sandy...

[Gloriano]

i just heard news from CNN NATO forces could do something i hope not



good you are still alive Sandwich:)

[Turnsky]

i seriously doubt that NATO would have duristiction over israeli territory...

*remembers US forces in iraq*

well there GOES that theory..

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
i just heard news from CNN NATO forces could do something i hope not

That's an interesting development, if it happens. But I have to wonder what they will actually do here? Prevent terrorists from slipping through security checkpoints and the like? Not bloody likely. Insist on Israel not going after terrorists? Not bloody likely. So what good would they be here - they'd just increase the number of targets the terrorists have as far as I can see.

[Turnsky]

Play cards with the IDF forces?

[Stryke 9]

Look busy and helpful. The UN's struggling right now, it's become a political theater between the US and EU, with both trashing it in their fight for control, and everyone not closely affiliated with either groups is just trying to keep it together as best they can. Bush's "irrelevant" statement is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.


I never got the UN, anyway. It can't enforce its mandates, it can't really say or do anything that upsets anyone, and since it includes virtually everyone that means the only thing it really can do is clear minefields in Nigeria or do some other unquestionably nice, but essentially useless task in a hellhole third-world country.

[Turnsky]

NATO, isn't attached to the UN AFAIK,

UN forces have those little blue hats/helmets and drive around in bloody obvious white vehicles..

and wouldn't know how to fight even if thier life depended on it(which it usually does)

[Stryke 9]

Ach, read that wrong. It's late. NATO actually has some muscle, though, being primarily a US operation, they'll be too afraid to piss off Israel or be portrayed as genocidal Palestinian-baby killers to really do anything except try to hinder Israeli counterstrikes if they get too overzealous.

[Turnsky]

indeed.. i suppose the UN's Days are sadly numbered...

it seems that a lot of major powers are doing whatever they like regardless of what the UN says..

which in turn, makes the UN look like officer barbrady..

[Stryke 9]

Well, either that or it's in a transitional state, and soon either the US or the EU will be using it as a device to achieve empire again. Then you'll get military backing (probably more so than before), and at least a modicum of usefulness.

[Turnsky]

maybe so.. something really needs to be done to give the UN some moderate Clout..

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Turnsky
it seems that a lot of major powers are doing whatever they like regardless of what the UN says..

which in turn, makes the UN look like officer barbrady..

When you don't back up verbal "threats" with force, when you don't put your money where your mouth is, you are ridiculed.

And example of this is the UN.

An example of the other result, of taking action, is the US in their war against the Taliban and Iraq, and Israel's war on Palestinian terrorisim. Both are currently being harshly criticised for their offensive actions.

Ridicule for not doing anything, or criticisim for taking action. Choose one.

[Turnsky]

a catch 22 situation..

"you're dammned if you do, Dammed if you don't"

just shows how stupid most of the human race really is..

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Turnsky
a catch 22 situation..

"you're dammned if you do, Dammed if you don't"

just shows how stupid most of the human race really is..

Exactly! The world will think badly of you no matter what, so the only decision to make is which option is best for you. Israel and the US have made that choice - correctly, IMO. The UN.... well, let's not get into that.

[Turnsky]

it didn't surprise me when the war in iraq actually started, all the anti-war protesters shut up..

well, as for the US and israel making the right decision.. i have to agree with ya..

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Originally posted by Turnsky
it didn't surprise me when the war in iraq actually started, all the anti-war protesters shut up..

Not all of them.

[J.F.K.]

Originally posted by Turnsky
indeed.. i suppose the UN's Days are sadly numbered...

It's basically the League all over again. Which, in turn, reminds me of Babel...

[pyro-manic]

 Happy days, eh?

What is needed is to help people to realise how pointless this conflict, and all other conflicts in the world are, even the US's "war on terrorism". We cannot force this realisation upon people, because by doing so we become as bad as they are themselves. We can only inform, and hope that they come to see the truth themselves. We're all people , for crying out loud! Why are we so self-destructive? What is humanity's obsession with destroying every other part of itself that doesn't have the same ideals and beliefs, and striving to get the best deal for itself while not caring how the rest of the world suffers for this?

I am deeply saddened by these events, not just because so many people are dying needlessly and pointlessly over such a tiny patch of land, but because it shows up the underlying problem with our great race, the one that means we can never be free of prejudice, and hatred, and death and destruction while we live together on this beautiful planet.

While such things are happening, we cannot claim to live in a civilised society, we cannot claim to be morally right (no matter what side we are on), we cannot even claim to be good people, because if we were any of these things, then we would not tolerate petty squabbles such as this that lead to such suffering and destruction.

I do not pretend to be free of these wrongs of prejudice, and mistrust, and hatred, and selfishness,  because I am human, and I cannot be free of these things while I see other humans treating each other in such ways, but I feel it is my right, my obligation, and my duty to spread this truth among the people of the world, so that they may decide for themselves.

Until the day comes when, all across the world, people open their eyes and see the reality of our violent existence, how cruelly and selfishly we have been treating each other for ten thousand years, we are doomed to live like this - each generation passing on it's prejudice, and hatred, and incontentment to the next, each one twisting these ancient evils into new forms, subverting and turning another part of our race against itself to the ruin of all.

We cannot carry on like this, and I cannot live in a world where a species that has such potential, potential to be so great and powerful and good, is riddled with such terrible sadness and weakness and evil. I have to try and save us before it is too late, before our self-destructive path is complete, and we wipe ourselves from history forever.