[Stunaep]

Now a year or so has passed since Estonia's Channel 2 screened the mighty impressive B5 series (best SF series, ever, IMO). Meanwhile, I've rediscovered the wondrous world of KaZaA, and downloaded exactly 72 of the 110 episodes. I've been slowly watching them since May, and I have gotten as far as Z'ha'dum.

I want to discuss. Because, this is STILL absolutely, terrifically, the best TV series I've seen. In fact, the only scenes that have moved me more the Londo's face in The Long Twilight Struggle were some of the scenes from LOTR and TTT. The uberleetness of Sinclair (I've got no problem with Sheridan, I just like Sinclair more) continues to amaze me, and then there's the terrific episodes like Comes The Inquisitor, or Confessions And Lamentations, not to mention Severed Dreams and The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place.

The insights provided by JMS in usenet, as portrayed at Lurker's, make this even cooler.

Now discussion points:

Standard: Fave episodes, characters.

Specific: One thing that has always fascinated my was JMS' original vision. Specifically, if Sinclair had remained on the show, would he still have become Valen? His flashbacks in War Without End seem to indicate so. If so, would JMS really replaced the lead character? Also, it would have been rather fun if instead of introducing the character of Lochley, Ivanova's aide, Lt. Corwin would have been promoted. No?

[Pera]

B5 was shown about 6 years ago here in Finland. I missed most of it then, but now I've downloaded all 110 episodes. I've now watched all of them, and I have to agree with you about the best TV series part, B5 rocks

I always kinda thought that the "main" charecters of B5 were really Londo and G'kar. That's why some of the stuff at the last season really moved me.

[an0n]

Every character was a character, not just a plot-device.

You'd see G'Kar and Londo just wandering around arguing even though they had nothing to do with the plot of the episode.

It was all the little, pointless things that made it so good.

Like Delenn pissing herself at Reebo and Zooty.

[Stunaep]

compared to the four episodes of the new Star Trek series that I've seen makes it even better.

[RangerKarl]

Hmm.

Here in Malaysia, they started showing B5 in 1996 (first season). Then the season ended, and it took 4 years for it to come back, on another network, at a way later time. Thankfully they were showing 2 or three episodes in a week instead of 1, which was good.

As a lite fan of B5, I guess I'm not so hot on the philosophy and everything. But I must say, those space combat sequences were , how you say, nifty.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by an0n
Every character was a character, not just a plot-device.

You'd see G'Kar and Londo just wandering around arguing even though they had nothing to do with the plot of the episode.

It was all the little, pointless things that made it so good.

Like Delenn pissing herself at Reebo and Zooty.

I agree 100% with that The other point is that unlike most Sci-fi shows the characters change over time.

The main characters lived through one of the most turbulent times the galaxy had ever seen and you can see how it changed them. Most sci-fi characters are exactly the same at the end of the final season. In B5 almost no one is the same.

[Turnsky]

noticed that one could get seasons of babylon 5 on dvd...


Nice..

[Hunter]

I have the might Season 1 and Season 2 DVDs. Boy oh boy, I love B5. Attention to realism is something I've always admired. Even some of the ships actually *look* right out of the future, unlike like those funny gigantic things with long warp nacelles

[IceFire]

Babylon 5 is my favorite TV series ever.  I love of sci-fi...I really like StarGate SG-1 as well (for different reasons) but Babylon 5, much like some of the people who grew up on classic trek, is the show that has most influenced my life.  At those young and impressionable ages when I first started watching the show I've grown up with it and with decidely positive view of the universe and Babylon 5 was always told with a very unwavering sense of universal morality that I haven't been able to match elsewhere.

It's hard for me to nail a single character down as my favorite.  Ivanova is god (), G'Kar and Londo changed so much but they were always guys you could have empathy for, Garibaldi was a great character with more than his share of problems...I think my favorite overall was Sheridan (and maybe Sinclair).  Any time I take those tests to figure out who you are supposed to be and I end up being those guys (or Vir, go figure).

Nope there's definately something about Babylon 5 that makes it the way it is.  It was a fantastic phenomenon...I hope we see its kind again someday.

[Stunaep]

One more great thing. There never was a definite bad guy. In the first season 1 eps, G'Kar was the baddie. But then again he wasn't. He had redeeming qualities, and lots of them. After all, he was just fighting for his people. The Londo became the 'bad guy'. But he too wasn't a bad guy in the true meaning of the word. He was just... politically ambitious. Or take the Shadows for example. Sure they were the menace for three whole seasons, but then we realise, that they, along with the Vorlons (who we originally thought were... well, angelic) have been guiding us for thousands of years.

It's complex as hell. THat's why I enjoy it.

And then there's the humour. Little is there in Drama TV that beats There All The Honor Lies.

[edit]
just remembered another thing thanks to IF's post. Most US series a full of the so called american kiddie-morale. By which I mean that the morals, and ethics of the series are frequently at the level of a five-year-old. They may mean the best, but in life, it just doesn't turn out that way. Perfect example is the otherwise excellent '24'. Mainly a lot of scenes with David Palmer in it. B5 keeps it realistical, philosophical and so on. Which, btw, reminds me of an excellent quote by Londo: "One morning you look into the mirror, and you realise that what you see is all, that you will ever be. Then you kill yourself.... or you learn to live with it. Or you stop looking at mirrors"

[Tiara]

Clicky me now! NOW i said! NOW!

[ZylonBane]

I was a hardcore B5 fanboy for a long time. Have almost every episode taped from the original airing. Have a "Church of Joe" T-shirt. Chitchatted with JMS personally on the GEnie SF&F forums. Can actually spell his last name.

But, I have to say the show has its flaws. For one thing, JMS is not a science fiction author. He may be great at writing characters, but at science he usually is pretty clueless (see "tiny explosion sends entire station spinning" from pilot episode). He also tends to write things that only make sense to JMS. And his attempts at humor are pathetically hamfisted.

Other than that it's an enjoyable watch. Much better than that "D&D in space" Crusade dreck.

[mikhael]

Babylon5 is the only thing that can make me sit down and watch television and not do anything else. Generally, I sit in front of the TV* and I've got the Legos out, or a programming project going, or whatever. Basically anything to use the other 97% of my brain that goes unused when absorbing crap from the ****box. With Babylon5, however, I have to watch, and pay close attention.

The real star of the show is the writing, particularly the dialoge and monologues. No matter how many times you hear Delenn's "only one human" speech, or Ivanova's "God sent me."  speech, you can't avoid the goosebumps and shivers of awe. The absolute conviction of the actors and the depth of feeling in the writing combine to bring forth a true masterpiece.

My favorite characters in the show Bester and Marcus, each for obvious reasons. I don't have a true favorite episode, but I'll go with the one where the Whitestar comes screaming out of space like an avenging angel to save Sheridan on Zhahadum. That was incredible.


* It should be pointed out that I never "generally" watch TV. By this I mean "when events transpire such that there is nothing else to do, except choose between sitting in front of the television and having an elephan tap dance on my balls, I will sit in front of the television and try to mitigate the idiot-making effects of its evil rays by doing something else as well, so as not to turn into the average american moron".

[IceFire]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
He may be great at writing characters, but at science he usually is pretty clueless (see "tiny explosion sends entire station spinning" from pilot episode). He also tends to write things that only make sense to JMS. And his attempts at humor are pathetically hamfisted.

Its better than tiny explosion sends the quantum conjigulator into a semi-temporal telephonic sub dimensional singularity thingmabob and you need to use the ventral phase bank re-routed through the deflector dish and the captains coffee machine to make it go away

(I'm actually a fan of ST as well but sometimes its a bit much ).

[karajorma]

Originally posted by mikhael
No matter how many times you hear Delenn's "only one human" speech, or Ivanova's "God sent me."  speech, you can't avoid the goosebumps and shivers of awe. The absolute conviction of the actors and the depth of feeling in the writing combine to bring forth a true masterpiece.

G'Kar's speech to the council in The Long, Twilight Struggle. Even Sheridan later claims that it made the hair on the back of his neck stand up on end.
 The best thing about it is that it is so applicable to situations on Earth now as well as to a Sci-fi series set in the future.

[Hunter]

I'd like to point out if when dicussing B5 please indicate SPOILER if your going to mention something in the story. I can't say enough that spoiling is bad for those who haven't watched all of B5 yet.

[ZylonBane]

Dude, the statute of limitations on B5 spoilers ran out a few years ago.

I wouldn't mind the scientific blunders so much if B5 hadn't gone to such lengths to present itself as the show that got the science right. It rarely did. ("Mass drivers?!?")

Don't even get me started on John "Need To Know"/"Clear and Present Danger"/"Nuke'em" Sheridan.

[karajorma]

What have you got against mass drivers? They're a standard mainstay of science fiction.

Besides I haven't seen any scientific stupidity in Babylon 5 that surpasses the stupidity of other Sci-fi shows. In general there was actually a lot less.

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by karajorma
What have you got against mass drivers?

The way they were used on B5. I'm sure JMS was thinking, "OOh, cool, mass drivers! This is teh science fictional thingy!", but their application in that particular episode made no bloody sense. Okay, so the Centauri wanted to pulverize Narn. What do you think is more efficient-- launching multi-megaton nuclear warheads (common military technology even in our primitive time period), or-- install massive clunky mass drivers on several of your ships, fetch several million tons of rock from god-knows-where, carve it up into pieces just the right size for the launchers, load the launchers, then blow a few billion electron volts accelerating the pieces toward the planet. Riiight.

Even if the goal was to pummel Narn without irradiating the place, accelerating the rocks was completely pointless. There's this little thing called gravity, y'see. All they had to do was bring some asteroids to Narn and deorbit them.

The way the characters in this ep were talking, it was as if mass drivers were inherently evil. "They're using mass drivers? Gasp!". This is inane. Mass drivers are just machines for making things go fast.

[karajorma]

Well in part you've pretty much answered your own question. Using nukes would irradiate the entire planet. Using asteroids on the other hand would only cause an ice age. So that's the first point answered as to why use mass drivers.

2) Narn like Earth no doubt had a planetary defence system. It probably wouldn't have much trouble shooting down nukes. A chunk of iron a couple of hundred meters wide travelling at a fraction of c on the other hand is another matter. Even if you do manage to break it apart you still haven't solved the problem of smaller chunks of iron raining down on the planet. A ten meter chunk of iron can have the power of around 5 Hiroshima size nukes even when travelling at the speed of asteroids in the solar system.

3) The Centauri have gravity based technology. They use it to power their ships. Accelerating a rock probably isn't that hard once you've got that kind of tech. All you need is rocks the right size and the Centauri could have brought some along themselves.

4) Why not deorbit the rocks you say. Transport the rocks through hyperspace and then drop them. Sounds easy. Except the problem is that when you move the rock through hyperspace you remove all of it's velocity. It would arrive in orbit around Narn with no velocity beyond that involved in orbiting Narn. Sure you could deorbit them once they are there but that just gives the orbital defence systems more time to shoot them down.

5)  the H-Bomb has been described in similar terms to the mass drivers of B5 because they serve no tactical purpose.
 The H-bomb is useless except for wiping out the civilian population. It's hugely indiscriminate. You can't aim it at anything because it will wipe out anything for miles around the intended target. That's why most missiles carry tactical nuclear weapons instead with a yield measured in kilotons.
It's no doubt the same with mass drivers especially considering the sheer inaccuracy of the weapon and the points I've raised above. With a mass driver the entire planet is the target  and the attacker obviously can't care where the rocks fall.
 Viewed in those terms they are a pretty evil weapon. You can't use them tactically, you can only use them when you don't care about anything on the planet. Besides it probably wasn't the mass drivers that were banned. More likely their use against a planet.

6) Who says the Centauri discovered the nuke or ever built them? They may have managed to stumble upon gravimetric technology first. Even if they did discover the nuke (which does seem likely) who says they would have a large stock of them? It took several days of bombardment from the mass drivers before the Narns gave in. Considering the fact that mass drivers probably did more damage than nukes the Centauri would have needed a huge number of them to get the Narn to surrender. And that's ignoring the fact that the Centauri would have lost a lot trying to get through the planetary defence.

7) Accelerating the nukes to any kind of decent speed presents problems. No where in B5 did you see nuclear missiles used cause they are pretty much obsolete by the time of B5. They are too easily shot down by a fighter to be of much use. When you did see nukes used they were more like mines. So now the Centauri would also need to have large numbers of expendable rockets of some kind to deliver the missiles. What if they didn't have them? After all as said above the nuclear missile probably makes as much sense in B5 times as the blunderbuss does now. Making a single mass driver for each ship would probably be more efficient, especially since they are probably quite simple to make.

Anyway those are all the arguements I can be bothered to come up with for now. I could probably come up with more if I tried.