[Flaser]

I was wondering how the community will manage when the wonderful campaigns, that our superb teams are working on, will be finished.

No I don't expect anyone to hemorrage in their overjoy.

Instead I was thinking of all the references and data that was accumulated during these years of work.

The most prominent reason for this whole thread is my recent experience with the Terran Vasudan War Project.

Namely a certain fighter that was crucial for the project turns out to be used by Inferno as well...
I'm not going to announce anything specific or prejorative I'll just try to point out the event as a sign that the Universe has risen above the general canon that was so far accepted by everyone.

What am I suggesting?

In brief, we should expand what's generally aproved as canon FS.

This can be done, of course, in a variety of ways.
The most easily agreeable part is including things from the heroic age of FREDing such as Derelict or the Aeos Affair, that are known by everyone and are not really over moded campaigns.

The harder part would be agreeing on which pre-FS campaigns would be taken for canon.

I don't want to pump anyone, furthermore I belive a stronger co-operation between the projects could lead to a canon that leaves window for all the campaigns in the workshops.

The last question is the fate of the post capellan campaigns.

I won't say anything specific here, though I'd like to make a distinction among campaigs:
-Pre Earth contact
-Post Earth contact

Due their nature I believe the later are all too developed to be cut down (we have Machina Terra, Black Water Operations, Inferno to just name a few, who are quite promising to make a full release).

However some of the Pre Earth contact could be included as well.

To sum my whole rant up is this question:

Should the FS Canon be Broadened?

[diamondgeezer]

Well I genrally assume the Derelict campaign to be canon if I want it to be, then if I want to incorporate any other campaigns I just make it obvious to the player that I'm including that history

[Flaser]

I was speaking about a community decission to aprove some of the campaigns as canon, so they can be used as reference for later mission and campaigns and help projects sort out their problems and diferences if they want to create a canon consistent project.

[Unknown Target]

before deciding canon, we should wait for everything to be finished. For instance, we have the FS Upgrade project, BWO, and other stuff going on, that doesn't use other campaigns as a starting point. So I'm gonna vote "no" right now.

[Knight Templar]

No and Yes.

Yes goes to stuff such as the TVWP. Although I don't generally accept what anyone has to say before the unification war, the TVWP has shown they they have gathered enough evidence to prove that they know what they are doing, and not just generally pulling things out of their asses. I accept the TVWP as canon, but nothing between it and present time.

The only other thing I think should be canoned is (possibly) the reconstruction era and the time where the GTA split into the factions and had the colony wars ( I beleive there was the Regulus Syndicate, the Luten Alliance, the Laramis Confederation and One other, probably the rest being under the four or just sticking with the old GTA.) I think there is some canon fun to be had there, just it needs to be as.. 'trustworthy' was the TVWP, which will be hard, because I don't think there is a lot of data on it.

Generally, other than that, I don't consider anything else canon and it would be rather silly to do so IMO. Saying "Well.. the Derelict/BWO/Warzone/Icefire and Agatheron Universe is canon and nobody else's is, sounds rather silly. Just leave it be. That way people won't have any trouble making post-capellan campaigns or feeling wierd about not making them 'The New FS Canon'.

Note: IMO, again, the whole attraction to the FS Universe is that there is so much that isn't canon, thus allowing and bring more people in to create or help create their own version of the story. It's the perfect open ended game universe in a way. There's just enough stuff to support it, while there's an infinite amount of room to expand. Putting a cap on that limit would only hurt us, not help.

Note 2: I hope for your sake, you put a time-out on the poll.

[pyro-manic]

Ditto.

If you start imposing restrictions on people, they either have to adapt their ideas (possibly rendering them crap ones), or scrap things altogether. I mean, I really like the Inferno plotline, but if I had to accept it as canon, it'd basically completely f*** my own project.

Something like Derelict could be canonised, because it's set in a backwater system for a large part of it's duration, but it could still impinge on people's creativity, so no.

[SadisticSid]

Canonising someone's work gives the sort of special recognition that only the game's originator should have. I wouldn't want anyone's efforts canonised, least of all my own. Let people create whatever they want without imposing arbitrary limitations on them.

Namely a certain fighter that was crucial for the project turns out to be used by Inferno as well...

If you're talking about the Enceladus, which I understand was completely Woo's design and implementation (although a [V] concept), you have no right to complain. It is his work to use as he wishes.

Sid.

[karajorma]

Absolutely not.

If you want to use stuff from TVWP in your campaigns go ahead but it's absolutely not canon and never should be.

[Flaser]

No, no, no, no and no!

You have it all wrong.

If anyone ever watched Gundam and are familiar with all the stories floating around they would know what I'm talking about.

My aim was to create a center and accepted history for the pre Great War and post Capella pre Contact era, so we can have things we all argee on.

On the other hand I see no problems with campaigns that fall out of that line.
Instead of "Canon FS title" they will go by the "Alternate Canon" or special branch or whatever you think of.

They wouldn't be discredited or put down or whatever, their work just won't be as consistent with the FS universe as the canon works.

On the other hand I purposfuly hadn't taken any claims for the models in Inferno for several reason that I'm going to cover.
Furthermore I kindly ask you and everyone else not to mention or discuss this in this thread anymore afterwards.

The reasons:
-It is the project admins job to do cross-project negotiations
-In theory we had the rights for the model, but that in no way prevents or bans Inferno from using it
-Inferno came out first
-They seem to have put together something very good
-We want to do somthing awsome
-Only the models creators have a true word in telling who has what and what rights

Model issue settled I may get back to the original topic:

Canon.

I don't want to restrict people I want to create a Canon that incoroporates as much of the present FS we know as possible.

Instead boundaries, this should be a loose net of stories, facts and events that would allow later campaign designers to incorporate things from earlier incarnations of the FS madness if they decide to do so.

[LtNarol]

I'm gonna vote no.

2 reasons:

1. FS and FS2 are canon, as is anything else that Volition has released; anything else can be used by multiple campaigns but to call something user-created canon is something of an insult to V.

2. Not all campaigns follow other campaigns, and not all campaigns follow TVWP.  To declare TVWP, or any other campaign for that matter, canon is to discourage the start of other campaigns and invalidate campaigns currently in development.

Into the Night does not, has not, and will not use TVWP for a base - we have Exposition for that purpose.

[Flaser]

We're not going to force anyone to do anything!

I'm in awe of Into the Night LtNarol, but I think we should create somekind of canon for those campaigns that do corresponde.

We shouldn't call it official canon or whatever, heck we could even call it UW-TVWP-Derelict canon or whatever, but at least we would have a frame that can be refered to or abandoned.

As for the insult and ect. stuff against Volition I never said it's gona be official canon, it's only a community after all.
But first of all I think we should ask :V: about it and then complain or throw remarks - even if well underlined and truthful - at each other.

Beside if you want my opinion even the first chapter of Into the Night could tie in with TVWP and UW, since we still have a 100 year period where the Eastern/Western opposition may take place.

Or if you insist we can abandon CANON altogether, and just try to piece together the NET of FS Campaigns and their relations.

This may seem pointless, but with all the campaigns floating arround we should arrange them into order somewhat or newbies or our so much spoken of general public will never ever find their way.

[LtNarol]

Exposition has plasma cannons, particle weapons, and various other things that TVWP doesn't have 100 years later.  Exposition also has the discovery of subspace set in 2261, with the first jump to Delta Serpentis in 2262.  Just about all of that contradicts TVWP.

Shadows is set in FS1, and Gathering is slated to take place during FS2.  The rest of Into the Night will follow Capella.

Creating a new set of "canon" events and specifications only limits, it creates very limited pros and packs a large following of cons.  That’s not to say that campaigns can't share timelines, plots, or even mods, but to do so and call it indisputable is ridiculous.

[Flaser]

Argh!!! I give up....
Okey, one more time:

This doesn't have to be mandatory and is neither indisputable.

Instead it should be a line of agreements made by the community and the campaign designers, that would outline which campaigns correspond with each-other, and they would also write down how they tie into the :V: FS Canon.

Does that sound better?

Oh...All I want is just a little organisation so problems like the one TVWP has with Inferno could be already sorted out easier.

[Eishtmo]

No.  Canon should not and cannot be expanded.  We are not the creators of the universe, nor to we hold any of the rights to the story, code, images, logos, etc, etc, etc.  Only those with those rights can and should dictate canon.  That means Volition and *shudder* Interplay have sole domain over canon.

Everything from the TV project to Derlict are fan created, and should remain so until Volition or *shudder* Interplay say otherwise.  There are some lines we cannot cross.

[Knight Templar]

and more to the point having 'multiple canons' sounds silly and rather pointless. I guess I'm completely no now, just leave it as it is.

[Woomeister]

Originally posted by Flaser
Oh...All I want is just a little organisation so problems like the one TVWP has with Inferno could be already sorted out easier.

What problem do you have with my campaign?

The Enceladus is my ship, therefore I can use it if and when I want to, it doesn't matter that there's another version in another campaign or timeframe.
The TVWP does not happen in my storyline, but if you want a canon usage for the ship, then that would fall to the original author to decide.

It's real silly to expect someone to include the background for a ship from another campaign into their own. I don't expect everyone who uses my Phobos model for example to conform to its INF specs and storyline, doing so would reduce its usefulness in that persons campaign. Also their campaign would have to be set after 2401...

Votes no...

Most campaigns really can't be put together unless they are sequels. You can't put BWO, MT and INF together for example.

Also you would have to decide what would become canon and what wouldn't. Why would campaign x be more canon than campaign y?

If there are two campaigns set in the exact same time and place which follow a canon guidline, which one becomes canon and adds to the story? They both can't be if they clash in story/events.

[Flaser]

Woomeister I have nothing against your campaign!!!

For, God sake I've been trying to get that trhough but everyone just seems to ignore that fact.

Anyway.

As I already said:

This DOES NOT HAVE TO BE GENERAL CANON.

So, all I say is we just have to see if we want to link the consistent campaigns.

Before anyone attacks me, about why the hell did I start the thread like this, let me remind them that I can change my opinion as I see fit, but titles are for admins...

What good that would be?

Well, you could have a whole range of campaigns that tie together nicely, and could use something up for many times, and explain events that were left bare in something else....
Duh...well, it is possible and somepeople may like it.

Anyway what I mostly want to stress is that what we make of this canonisation is up to us.

So please, please leave this whole: "It's against the holy, saint :V:" stuff, and try to be reasonable.
If we don't want to refer to our stuff as official then it won't be, end of issue on my end.

[Knight Templar]

that's not making something canon, that's just following a certain universe. An example would be the BWO/Warzone/Derelict universe. They all tie in together, but that doesn't make them canon, nor does it make it FS canon in any way if more people build onto universe. You can have BWO Universe canon, but not have BWO be FS universe canon. it doesn't work.

Now if you think you are so misunderstood, then I'd guess you are trying to say "should we have more campaigns that follow other campaigns." like the inferno archives or Solatar's project. If that's the case, then sure, that's always cool....

[Flaser]

Yes, that's something like that.

Except that some kind of manual should be written that tells newbies what goes with what.

Beside I've given up on actually canonising a few posts ago - somthing I somehow couldn't get through - and would be willing to go with outlining which campaigns go with each oher, and then let the players decide what they like to play.

The same document would be good for designers who want to place their story in one alteration or another - if not their own one -, and would also tell them who to contanct for support and data.

[Goober5000]

I think you hit a nerve as soon as you said the word "canon".  Canon means official, firsthand, indisputable "this really happened in the Freespace universe".  Only Volition can say that, because they're the ones who designed the game.

Now if you want to write up a FAQ to make it more clear for newbies and such that "this goes in the BWO universe, this goes in the TVWP universe", etc., that's cool, and that makes sense.  There's a possibility that someone would be confused if they see different campaigns contradicting themselves in plot or in modelling.

But if you want to form a committee to raise a certain few of the campaigns to some elite status, even if they are well done, IMO that's setting a bad precedent.  People would be constrained into thinking along a certain way, and even saying "hey, you can do it differently if you want, just put it in an alternate universe" wouldn't work well because people don't want to contradict "canon" unless they really have a good reason.