[redsniper]

It's discussions like these that make me think we should all just move on...

[StratComm]

Ok, I'll say it now as I've already said it several times today...  Americans remember September 11 because such an act had only been committed on this country once before (Pearl Harbor) and because it was not a war situation.  Why do we not remember Pearl Harbor?  Because in the years following that attack the United States was engaged in a formal war.  The collective resources of American society were engaged in the waging of said war, and countless lives were being lost on a daily basis.  In comparison it wasn't such a big thing as the start of something even bigger, and far worse.  Today, America is not engaged in a war per say (yes, we retaliated the best we could to Afghanistan, and yes, we have troops in Iraq because we decided to take military action there as well); it's not the total war scenario that was present in World War II.  It's not part of our daily lives.  So an event like September 11 sort of stands out.  And, with all of the changes it has sparked in American society, it will be remembered for a long time.  The remembrance of September 11 this year was marked by more a spiritual mourning than anything else, along with some patriotism, but nothing like we experienced two years ago.  I'm on the campus of a major university, and a conservative one at that.  The chapel chimed a bell to signal times like when the planes hit, and there was a large group prayer and a few "remember" posters up here and there.  No mass flag waving, no "kill them all" attitudes.

Time passes.  People move on.

The "terrorists" scored a major short-term victory but they did not ultimately win.  They challenged our society and it stumbled.  But we have gotten back on our feet, and not as much has really changed as so many outside the US seem to think.  So we have to go through security at airports more extensive than we did before.  Good.  We needed more of that in the first place.  Our economy was shaken to its foundations.  This is what really has hurt the US, and is the impetus for a lot of policy decisions of late (because if Bush doesn't either bury the issue in patriotism with a war or fix it, he's toast come re-election time) but the market was long overdue for that correction anyway.  Losing the World Trade Center was just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  No.  Have I seen any long-term infringements on my rights as a citizen of my country?  Absolutely not.  Do I worry about what my government is doing?  As a responsible citizen, yes.  Can I do anything about that right now?  No.  America is a democracy and the best thing its citizens can do if they do not like government policies is vote the bad policymakers out.  

The following is for all of you barking the "imminent police state" routine:  You are still seeing fallout from a major terrorist attack on government policies.  That "must stop the terrorists" rationale isn't working as well as it once did, and will continue to lose effectiveness as time moves on.  Will it ever completely go away?  No.  Will the people of the United States put up with continual cutbacks on their liberty?  More emphatically no.  We are a proud people; proud of our country (not the same thing as our government, though the two are neither mutually exclusive nor mutually dependent), proud of our accomplishments, and proud of the freedoms that we have had the luxury of taking for granted for many years.  We as a nation will not allow those freedoms to be revoked, in whole or in part, for very long.  So go find another dead horse to beat, we've all heard it and we've all already made up our minds on how we will deal with it.  We've done a damn good job so far given the circumstances, so leave us to sort out the rest of the chaos left in terror's wake.

EDIT: I might as well get my thoughts out there too...  As an American, I mourn for those who died needlessly, in the terrorist attacks and in the reprisal that America had to make.  I mourn for my nation's leaders, as history will forever remember them by the actions and mistakes that they make.  And most of all, I mourn for my country.  We traverse a path lit only by the world we once knew, with so little to guide our way and so many obstacles to overcome.

[Rictor]

Please read:

No one hates America because they are free. Everyone wants to be free and loves freedom. I know of nobody who does not want themselves and their loved ones to be free. No one hates America because you've got equal rights for women, gays etc. It may be slightly against religion, but almost every religion is against gays and other minorities. No one hates America out of envy. Financially, yes, you're on top, but culturally, I doubt many people would want to trade places. No one hates America because you are viewed as the "infidels". There are very few people who would attack a nation based solely on its religion and nothing else. Terrorists usually strike to accomplish specific objectives and in respones to specific actions.

The reason some people hate America, hate America enough to do the things they do, is because basically, America is a bully. Economically, you more or less strong-arm the world economy with threats of force. You are rich because others are poor. You have 3 TVs and 2 cars, while the majority of the world struggles for survival. Militarilly, America is way to agressive. They are in places where they're not supposed to be. America has troops stationed in something like 45 countries. How would you feel if a foreign country, say Germany, has troops stationed in the US? Would you tolerate it? And culturually, America believes themselves to be superior to every other nation and every other people. Burgers and Hollywood does not constitute a culture, and yet America strives so much to make every place on Earth like them.

The people who died on September 11 are victims, many, who paid the price for the actions of a few. This is the case with almost all civilian casualties, and this is why the American reaction to September 11 makes a terrible situation all the more tragic.

Peace guys

[CP5670]

I didn't have time for another one of these, but I couldn't resist here.

I know of nobody who does not want themselves and their loved ones to be free.

No one hates America because you are viewed as the "infidels".

You aren't too familiar with some of the cultures out there then, are you?

No one hates America out of envy.

heh, this is followed by:

You are rich because others are poor. You have 3 TVs and 2 cars, while the majority of the world struggles for survival.

Anyway, envy is and always has been one of the biggest reasons any party (including individuals) hates any other. This situation is no different.

How would you feel if a foreign country, say Germany, has troops stationed in the US? Would you tolerate it?

Depends on whether or not we could do anything about it. If we could, then no, and if not, then yes. Same goes for anyone else.

Burgers and Hollywood does not constitute a culture, and yet America strives so much to make every place on Earth like them.

Anything constitutes a culture.

[Rictor]

But see, you haven't actually made any arguements. All you've done is you have quoted each of my points, and every time you've said: "this isn't so". You may not think its so, but if you want to rebut, then maybe you should actually go a bit deeper than simply saying "I'm right, you're wrong".

[CP5670]

Actually I was more pointing out contradictions and inconsistencies there. Anyway, my statements just come from observations; I can give you examples if you like.

[Gloriano]

No one hates America because they are free. Everyone wants to be free and loves freedom.

you say that americans are onlypeoples who are free? what i am then i live in Japan what i am then:rolleyes:

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Rictor
The reason some people hate America, hate America enough to do the things they do, is because basically, America is a bully. Economically, you more or less strong-arm the world economy with threats of force. You are rich because others are poor. You have 3 TVs and 2 cars, while the majority of the world struggles for survival. Militarilly, America is way to agressive. They are in places where they're not supposed to be. America has troops stationed in something like 45 countries. How would you feel if a foreign country, say Germany, has troops stationed in the US? Would you tolerate it? And culturually, America believes themselves to be superior to every other nation and every other people. Burgers and Hollywood does not constitute a culture, and yet America strives so much to make every place on Earth like them.

The people who died on September 11 are victims, many, who paid the price for the actions of a few. This is the case with almost all civilian casualties, and this is why the American reaction to September 11 makes a terrible situation all the more tragic.

Peace guys

Just to quickly respond to this, I agree that American economic policy is very self-centered, and often manipulates world trade for domestic gain.  I also agree that the American public supports (as in will buy into) an ideal of culture that is extremely vain and decadent.  I don't like it, a lot of Americans don't like it, but it sells to the teen-boppers or whatever and so that it is what the rest of the world sees.  Americans are often stereotyped before we have any chance to redeem ourselves.  I hate it, but I can put the problem past me.  And while our military is flung far and wide, it is not being a controlling force in nearly as many places as it is stationed.  We have troops stationed across Europe because of NATO, and they are there for the defense of our allies rather than to manipulate them.  They are, more specifically, still there from the Cold War, and not only the US but also all of our NATO allies saw the need to station American troops in Europe.  America uses its military as a rapid reaction force as well (here your argument about military agressiveness comes in to play) but that is not the primary reason so many troops are stationed there.  That way if war were to break out in Europe the US wouldn't have to spend months moving its men and equipment half way around the world.  That is the fundamental reason that they are there.  If the situation was reversed, I would not mind having German (or French, or British, or even say Turkish) troops in the US at all.  It's not like they are running checkpoints and patrolling the streets with M16's.  

As to Americans thinking we are culturally superior, I have to disagree.  We are, as a nation, outgoing and as I said before very proud, so we may come across as feeling superior culturally when in fact we do not.  I personally do not believe in cultural superiority/inferiority (a belief not uncommon among Americans actually).  Then again I don't like Brittney Spears or any of the pop music or culture crap that is being broadcast over the media.

[Kosh]

One thing people seem to forget is how much the Republican party has exploited the fear and paranoia that 9-11 generated. They have used it as an excuse to silence the opposition voices. They call critisizing the president "unpatriot". They call not supporting the administrations war mongering "unpatriotic". They call questioning how the administration is conducting the war "treasonous". Well, this kind of exploitation of a tradgedy is just down right despicable.

[Gloriano]

As to Americans thinking we are culturally superior

there is many cultures in USA. european,asian,african etc etc

[CP5670]

One thing people seem to forget is how much the Republican party has exploited the fear and paranoia that 9-11 generated. They have used it as an excuse to silence the opposition voices. They call critisizing the president "unpatriot". They call not supporting the administrations war mongering "unpatriotic". They call questioning how the administration is conducting the war "treasonous". Well, this kind of exploitation of a tradgedy is just down right despicable.

But that is the whole idea behind democracy. The common people are rather stupid, and a good democratic politician uses this to his advantage. How is this any different from any other kind of persuasion?

there is many cultures in USA. european,asian,african etc etc

and math nuts

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Kosh
One thing people seem to forget is how much the Republican party has exploited the fear and paranoia that 9-11 generated. They have used it as an excuse to silence the opposition voices. They call critisizing the president "unpatriot". They call not supporting the administrations war mongering "unpatriotic". They call questioning how the administration is conducting the war "treasonous". Well, this kind of exploitation of a tradgedy is just down right despicable.

And no one takes that any more seriously than "Freedom Fries"  (possibly the dumbest idea in the history of dumb ideas... really, what was the point?)

Really, how many people have actually been charged with treason in the last 20 years, much less how many have been branded traitors for criticizing the President.  The Republican party has used it as a propaganda tool, nothing more.  It won't silence critics, it just slightly alters the segment of the populus that agrees with them.

[Rictor]

Imperiano: what? No, what I said was that everyone wants to be free, not just Americans. I think maybe you misunderstood the point I was making, though I think the language was pretty clear.

CP: Alright lets take this one at a time.



You aren't too familiar with some of the cultures out there then, are you?
So, what you're saying is that there are religions out there, who do not advocate personal freedom? There are religions out there who like to be controled, and who abhore making choices for themselves, and instead prefer others to be able to act upon them with impunity? In otherwords, masochistic religions. Please, give me an example.

Anyway, envy is and always has been one of the biggest reasons any party (including individuals) hates any other. This situation is no different.
If you steal my food, and then get fat while I starve, I am not envious, I am mad. People are envious of the things other people earn, not steal. If Person A exploits Person B to get rich, while at the same time making (or keeping) Person B poor, the Person B has no reason to envy Person A, since the things that Person A posses rightfully belong to Person B.

Personally, I'm not terrible rich, but I don't envy the rich. I simply don't want the things they have. If I were living in a 3rd world country, and exploited to get Americans rich, I wouldn't really be envious, I'de pissed.

Depends on whether or not we could do anything about it. If we could, then no, and if not, then yes. Same goes for anyone else.

Thats not what I meant.They tolerate it because they must, but the American presence fosters anger towards Americans. And obviously, as we've seen, they CAN do something about it.



Anything constitutes a culture.

So, in your opinion, 2000 years of philosophy, literature and thought is the same as burgers and air shows. If you answered yes to the above, then I don't think your opinion counts for a lot.

[Gloriano]

and math nuts [/B][/quote]


yeah:D


more about cultures americans have very young culture

Asian and European has very old culture

about 1000 years or something like that

[StratComm]

Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
and math nuts


yeah:D


more about cultures americans have very young culture

Asian and European has very old culture

Gloriano, I understand that English is not your native language, but you seem to have missed Rictor's point.  Saying "Because I am American, I am free" is not the same as saying "Because I am free, I am an American".  There's enough material on this thread to go into a couple of short essays, so it's more than understandable for you to not be able to properly translate everything that is being said.

[Gloriano]

okay i get that

but american has done samething to country i live droping 2 Nuclear bomb and killing civilians okay that was in war times

[Sandwich]

Thread closed. Sorry, but there's too much near-flaming going on here. Because we're a world-wide community, we'll never agree on how to observe certain things, and 9/11 is one of them.

I've posted a news item that says what I feel. If you have a problem with what I said there, in all honesty, too bad. Go find yourself another place to hang around.

I will not tolerate any other 9/11 threads that go off onto these "what's the big deal" tangents. I'd rather just see everyone oberve this day however they'd prefer to offline, and not bring up the subject here. I don't feel like running after you all.