[Omniscaper]

Hey Karma, Truespace is still fairly new to me. I just recently in the last 3 days picked it up. I am more of a Lightwave and 3dsmax veteran. Whoever designed that interface needs to go to the timeout room, it is horrific.

I am using PCS 1.34 I believe. Where are you folks getting these utitilties. I have to search far and wide through Google and Yahoo, in order to find these programs. I need to know where to get the latest releases and a more detailed explanation of the functions necessary to produce a clean conversion from the Bridge Commander Models.

Where in Truespace would I find Autofacet? I had always thought the smoothing is taken cared of, or actually ignored, by the PCS.


My System Specs:

P4 2.6ghz Xeon (single)
Supermicro x5dal-g
1gb pc2100 DDR ram
(A competent)  Ati Radeon 9500pro 128ddr
Audigy 2 Soundcard
60gb Western Digital (slow 5400RPM)


I'm surprised the Ati 9500 was able to handle those textures exceedingly well. I could only imagine what the new 9800X could do.

[Bobboau]

if he is manageing to convert the model he is probly useing the PCS build I linked to (the facet build), unless Kazan updated his build, truespace defalts to auto-facet angle of 32 degrees, there are 3 shadeing options in TS, facet(), auto-facet, and smooth, the facet build of PCS (short for auto-facet, yes that is somewhat confuseing) is setup to use auto-faceting corectly, all other versions did it wrong, however from the shots it looks like there may actualy be an internal FSO problem, we've never actualy had a model of that complexity in game yet so there may be some problems,
but damn if that isn't an amazeing sight!

[KARMA]

well, TS is pretty different, from what I've heard, than Lightwave or max, people love it or hate it, personally I like the interface, and I use only TS6, but many people coming from those other modelling programs usually find it confusing.
Just remember that you can access to hidden tools options with right click on many icons, like for the autofacet angle, and there are other menus that will pop-up only under certain conditions: for example, the point edit tools will pop-up only if you enter in point-edit mode, activating one of the face/edges/vertices selection tools.
The autofacet is in the material editor menu, an icon on the bottom left, but since its position changed in the different versions, I can't tell you its exact position in your version.
Once you activate the material editor menu, the facet/autofacet/smoothing option is one of the small icons on the left. Facet will give no smoothing at all, autofacet will use a defined angle (right click on the icon to change angle) for the smoothing, smoothing doesn't work with PCS.
You will need the version of PCS with custom autofacet angle enabled: it will use the angle you defined in Truespace. check here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,18798.0.html

about your model... fso can handle almost any texture size, but as long as it is supported by users' GPUs, and I don't know how many card can use those giant maps.
Also remember (as I said on the other thread) to optimize your model for the game engine: the HT&L system should work faster if if you use as less subobjects possible and as less textures possible on each subobject.
eheh:) the first time I misunderstood you, thinking that the overall  resolution of all the textures was 4096x2048, not that EACH texture was of this size....how many textures of them, btw?
well depending by their number, it is probably a bit too much, and you may want to use for example the baking tools of lightwave to reduce the textures without loosing quality, obtaining a better balance between speed and quality

[Omniscaper]

I'm willing to settle for some glitchy shading, as long as the ship is working. But if you could give some more tips on the proper shading to use with the facet version of PCS, it would be a great help. Where exactly in the chaos of an interface is that option?

So far the only way I could keep the model, without reduction, to convert and play properly, I had to link EVERY independent object with a light. The sovereign has 14 independent objects when I exported it to Truespace. When I export the model from 3dsmax as a single object, it would crash Freespace if not PCS. This method allowed me to use the models untouched in their 12k-15k glory. Should I physically connect all independent objects with their vertices in order to truelly make it a single mesh for it to work better?


I'm still trying to get those turrets to work right. Do "paths" have somethin to do with Beam weapons? I don't recall seeing FOV settings in the turret tab of PCS(faceted). I must be blind. I already set the normals to extend a good 200 meters out, but I'm not sure I'm using "normals" correctly. I figured normals tell the firing point where to search for its target. I noticed though in the stock pof's that "paths" are somehow linked to turrets. I'm fearing its this oversight is the cause for the beam weapons not working.

[Taristin]

Oooh. Ryx, can I have a copy of your latest mesh? To play with in game...?

[Omniscaper]

Unfortunately, UV unwrapping is still a new course for me to learn , which is a slow process. The models I use range from 6-8 maps ranging from 512x512 to 4096x2048. The models seem way to complex for it to use only less than 5 maps.

If I were to re mapp them using only 3-5 maps, I'll lose CONSIDERABLE detail. I'd like to keep its detail considering that ships can fly up close to it. I don't wanna see blurry madness. I'll gladly accept texture tearing which is due to either too many maps or faulty smoothing, which is evident in many of the pictures I've posted. I prefer detail over graphic flawlessness.

In terms of the model's optimization for HT&L, 3dsmax shows the models already trianglated. I never see quads which I'm guessing is the result of Milkshape's middleman role in retrieving the Bridge Commander models and exporting it to 3dsmax. If only milkshape could directly export to COB, which it doesn't. I'll see if the Bridge Commander folks know of better translators.

[KARMA]

as said, I don't know where the material editor is in your TS version, but it shouls be around the bottom left of the screen....just check the icons....this is the aspect of the material editor menu: xoomer.virgilio.it/svfferra/fxmod/img/snap168.jpg (copy/paste the link), the shading options are on the left, the second small icon from the bottom: select autofacet, right click to define the angle, reapply the material, check the differences and choose the best angle.
For the turretts I can't say more than what is written in the tutorials (check karajoma's FAQ, the link is on his signature)
For the subobject... LODs, shields, destroyable objects, destroyed versions of objects, debris, turretts, rotating parts must be separated objects.
Examples of hierachy for those objects are present on Bobboau's tutorial about PCS: check his sign.
All the other objects should be on the same layer to have better speed results.
You can connect manually all the subobjects (actually it will give the best result, since intersections may cause collision detection problems), but you can also just merge all the subobjects on the same layer.
There isn't an easy way, in truespace you can for example select a subobject, change it's position so that it doesn't intersect the main hull, use boolean unify to create a single object, select the subobject (by selecting its faces), move the subobject back to its original position.
I think it should be possible to use a different file format to automerge all the subobject, like DXF, unfortunately DXF doesn't retail uvcoordinates, I don't know if there are other formats wich could be used.
About the number of textures...considering the size of a star trek ship and its complexity, in my opinion 6-8 textures of 1024x1024 each would be probably more than enough, without loosing much details

[Omniscaper]

I'm using truespace 6.5.  Will creating a single complete mesh version allow PCS to convert without crashing? So far the light grouping method had solved ALL my crash problems. I now know that FS-SCP can handle 14k+ objects, and that single high poly models that I tweak out Bridge Commander kept crashing. Then again I didn't link every vertice where the original seperate objects met. Are you suggesting that I do major stitching before trying PCS?

[KARMA]

it could take some minutes for PCS to finish converting a mesh, expecially when it is so complex.
try to leave it working for sometimes, I remember I converted a 10k poly ship in around 6-7 minutes....

[Bobboau]

yes a model of that complexity will take a LONG LONG time to convert, PCS will just sit therer for a few minutes thinking about all the polygons and there relation to each other

[Omniscaper]

If that is the case, why is the light grouping method I used speeding up conversion times? From 2 4 minutes to 20 seconds for a 13k model.

[Bobboau]

becase they are in seperate subobjects, and PCS is makeing 16 BSP trees of 800 polys rather than one of 13,000, it's a lot easier to think about 16 groups of 800 than one group of 13.000. the big problem is that the game is going to render those 16 groupes seperately rather than in one go wich is were HT&L gets all of it's speed from.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Omniscaper
I'm still trying to get those turrets to work right. Do "paths" have somethin to do with Beam weapons? I don't recall seeing FOV settings in the turret tab of PCS(faceted). I must be blind. I already set the normals to extend a good 200 meters out, but I'm not sure I'm using "normals" correctly. I figured normals tell the firing point where to search for its target. I noticed though in the stock pof's that "paths" are somehow linked to turrets. I'm fearing its this oversight is the cause for the beam weapons not working.

The later part of my FAQ was written for modelview in addition to PCS because I prefer working in it whenever possible. Unfortunately Modelview seems to crash whenever dealing with HTL models so you're stuck with PCS until Kazan finishes his new program.

The FOV settings can be found on the Subobjects tab in PCS. Even though the FAQ is designed for modelview it should help some.

[KARMA]

Originally posted by Bobboau
becase they are in seperate subobjects, and PCS is makeing 16 BSP trees of 800 polys rather than one of 13,000, it's a lot easier to think about 16 groups of 800 than one group of 13.000. the big problem is that the game is going to render those 16 groupes seperately rather than in one go wich is were HT&L gets all of it's speed from.

Bob, but if I glue two objects together, instead of with a light for each one, will PCS consider them as two objects or as only one?
I mean:

Code: [Select]


---geo1
---geo2
---geox
---light
-------detail1
etc, etc...


this is pretty important because, as you know, I have to deal sometimes with models sliced in many pieces, and this way would be many times faster

[Bobboau]

if it converts faster it's probly makeing seperate subobjects, if you arn't sure just look at the final pof if it has more subobjects then it's getting broken down into seperate subobjects wich will slow the HTL engine down a bit

[Ryx]

Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Oooh. Ryx, can I have a copy of your latest mesh? To play with in game...?

Sure

Grab.

[KARMA]

I just glued together 2 cubes, without any light, and converted to pof.

Code: [Select]


---group
------cube1
------cube2


PCS say 1 group, 0 lights, 2 polygroups

modelview see the two cubes as one single subobject (lod0)

I also converted back from pof to cob, as result PCS generated a single object out of the two cubes, with this result:

Code: [Select]


---freespace model
------noname
------light

I suppose this mean that all the meshes placed at the same hierachy level not glued each one with its ownlight will be considered by the HTL engine as one single object, and rendered together, right?
this is pretty important and useful, for me at least:)

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Ryx


Sure

Grab.

Sweet. Trashman's goping to hate me, but this is going to further delay his Orion being done...


J/k Trashman... I'll do it soon, but it's harder to tex than a ship like this...

[Omniscaper]

I figured out that the Galaxy ship, can convert as a single mesh as long as all the vertices are aligned and that no intersections occur. It was a toughy to take a model composed of 10+ parts and stitch them into one mesh. Many of the objects seems to have been created apart from the super structure. Those objects HAD TO BECOME subobjects. I figured out that all the crashes I've been having with conversion or Freespace seems to stem from the fact that if a ship, which is treated as a "single" mesh, contains any form of polygon or vertex intersection, crashes the game if not PCS.

I did a test with a number of joined parts and created a single mesh. The texture tearing artifacts disappeared from the model and the frame rate is a little improved.... probably +5. Its negligable to the framerate I was getting when ALL parts of the Galaxy were subobjects.

I'm optimizing the model right now to have as much joinable parts connected. The others I am forced to treat as a subobjects.  For the sake of getting the most out of HT&L I guess.

[Omniscaper]

Hey Bobboau, what do you suppose is the best angle to set autofacet to? I left it at the default of 90. I'm still not too thrilled with PCS as compared to "Cob2fs2"'s uber smoothness. The Galaxy is a smooth ship. I'd like to get as smooth as possible.