[Odyssey]

Er... quite easily? Just because it's a penis doesn't mean it's sacred or anything.

[vyper]

[q]Er... quite easily? Just because it's a penis doesn't mean it's sacred or anything.[/q]

Lets look at it another way, what would you say about someone cutting off the hood of a womans clitoris?

[Odyssey]

For what reason? It depends quite a bit on that.
And anyway, it would probably be accepted that since the female's clitoris would then be unprotected, it would then be desensitised by the constant contact of whatever.

...wait a minute, are you trying to make me worship clits? :S

[vyper]

[q]For what reason? It depends quite a bit on that.[/q]

Say for the same reason as for the foreskin?

[Odyssey]

If medical:
So what? Had to happen.

If for no apparent reason:
We're talking about very different constructions, but I don't exactly see it as much of an issue to get frantic about. It's not a vital component of the person's workings, neither is the foreskin. Neither do I see a reason to do it (same as my opinion on male circumcision), but if people want to that's their choice.

[vyper]

[q]but if people want to that's their choice.[/q]

Yep but this thread focused on those that had no choice

[Odyssey]

Well, as I said, does it really make that much difference to the person who has it done to them? Nah, not really. So, although it might be a minor annoyance, I wouldn't see it as a real big issue. After all, as many people (including me) have pointed out in this thread, they're circumcised and perfectly happy.

[Kazan]

vyper: thank you

[TrashMan]

I like jews...

I don't like jewes that control the USA or the jewes in Israel that go on bombing inoccent people...

I'm whole b.t.w....hehehehe

[Odyssey]

What do you mean Jews that control the USA? Jews are generally good at managing economies, there's no way they have anything to do with the running of the USA...

[Woolie Wool]

As far as I'm concerned, mutilating someone against his will is wrong. And circumcision is mutilation: you are removing part of someone's body. If you want to mutilate yourself by piercing your skin or having someone remove your foreskin, go ahead. Don't do it to your children against their will.

[Odyssey]

I was under the impression mutilation meant removing something important. I would not apply mutilation to removing the foreskin any more than I would apply it to grazing a knee, in that while there were loads of nerve endings there that just went kaput, it really isn't life-threatening.
Not that I would force circumcision on anyone, since it's unnecessary. And it costs. Cost = bad.

[TrashMan]

Why does the USA tolerate the action of Israel so much?
If Croatia or Chile or some other county done that, it would have been bombed sensless by now!

Who lives in Israel? - radical Jewes
Who holds a large number of high (economic) positions in the USA? - jewes

[Odyssey]

Calm down... Remember where Nazi Germany came from... Blaming Jews for everything gets you nowhere...

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by TrashMan
Why does the USA tolerate the action of Israel so much?
If Croatia or Chile or some other county done that, it would have been bombed sensless by now!

Who lives in Israel? - radical Jewes
Who holds a large number of high (economic) positions in the USA? - jewes

Jews don't control the US and they aren't part of some conspiracy. We tolerate Israel because working with them gives us a friend in the Middle East.

[Kazan]

Originally posted by Odyssey
I was under the impression mutilation meant removing something important. I would not apply mutilation to removing the foreskin any more than I would apply it to grazing a knee, in that while there were loads of nerve endings there that just went kaput, it really isn't life-threatening.

this statement is intellectually dishonest

the foreskin is a biologically important thing - go read up http://noharmm.org/advantage.htm

References

1. Taylor, J. R. et al., "The Prepuce: Specialized Mucosa of the Penis and Its Loss to Circumcision," British Journal of Urology 77 (1996): 291-295.

2.  Werker, P, Terng, A, Kon, M, "The Prepuce Free Flap: Dissection Feasibility Study and Clinical Application of a Super-Thin New Flap," Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery 102 (1998): 1075-1082.

3. Money, J. and Davison J., "Adult penile circumcision: erotosexual and cosmetic sequelae," The Journal of Sex Research, Vol 19 No. 3, Aug 1983.

4. Hammond, T. "A Preliminary Poll of Men Circumcised in Infancy or Childhood," BJU International 83, Suppl. 1 (1999): 85-92.

5. Bullough, V. L. and Bullough, B. ed., "Circumcision: Male-Effects Upon Human Sexuality," Human Sexuality Encyclopedia,Garland, 1994.

6. O'Hara, K. and O'Hara, J., "The effect of male circumcision on the sexual enjoyment of the female partner," British Journal of Urology, 83, Supplement 1, (1999): 79-84.

7. Cold, C, Taylor, J, "The Prepuce," BJU International 83, Suppl. 1, (1999): 34-44.

8. Bazett, H. C. et al., "Depth, Distribution and Probable Identification in the Prepuce of Sensory End-Organs Concerned in Sensations of Temperature and Touch; Thermometric Conductivity," Archives of Neurology and Psychiatry 27 (1932): 489-517.

9. Dogiel, A. S., "Die Nervenendigungen in der Haut der äusseren Genitalorgane des Menschen," [Nerve endings in human genital mucosa] Archiv fur Mikroskopische Anatomie 41 (1893): 585-612.

10. Winkelmann, R. K., "The Cutaneous Innervation of Human Newborn Prepuce," Journal of Investigative Dermatology 26 (1956): 53-67.

11. Winkelmann, R. K., "The Erogenous Zones: Their Nerve Supply and Its Significance," Proceedings of the Staff Meetings of the Mayo Clinic, 1959.

12. Erickson, J. A., "Three Zones of Penile Skin," five photographs in Lander M. M., "The Human Prepuce," in Denniston, G. C. and Milos, M. F., eds., Sexual Mutilations: A Human Tragedy, Plenum Press (1997): 79-81.

13. Seifer, Judith, R.N. (President, American Assn. of Sex Educators, Counselors and Therapists) "Ask men's health." Men's Health (October 1994): 133

14. Fleiss, P., Hodges, F. M., and Van Howe, R. S., "Immunological Functions of the Human Prepuce," Sexually Transmitted Infections, 1998.

15. Lee-Huang, S, Huang P.L., Sun Y., et al "Lysozyme and RNases as anti-HIV components in beta-core preparations of human chorionic gonadotropin," Proc Natl Acad Sci (U S A) 1999 (Mar 16);96(6):2678-2681.

16. Van Howe, R.S., "Does Circumcision Influence Sexually Transmitted Diseases?" BJU International 83, Suppl. 1 (1999): 52-62.

17. Laumann, E.O. et al., "Circumcision in the United States: Prevalence, Prophylactic Effects, and Sexual Practice," JAMA 277, 1997.

18. Nicoll, A. "Routine male neonatal circumcision and risk of infection with HIV-1 and other sexually transmitted diseases," Archives of Disease in Childhood (London) 1997;77(3):194-195.

19. Smith, G. L. et al., "Circumcision as a Risk Factor for Urethritis in Racial Groups," American Journal of Public Health 77, 1987.

20. Cook, L. S. et al., "Clinical Presentation of Genital Warts among Circumcised and Uncircumcised Heterosexual Men Attending an Urban STD Clinic," Genitourinary Medicine 69 (1993): 262-264.

21. Tanne, J.H., "U.S. has epidemic of sexually transmitted disease," BMJ 1998;317:1616.

22. Hausmann, R. et al., "The Forensic Value of the Immunohistochemical Detection of Oestrogen Receptors in Vaginal Epithelium," International Journal of Legal Medicine 109 (1996): 10-30.

23. Ahmed, A. and Jones, A. W., "Apocrin Cystadenoma: A Report of Two Cases Occurring on the Prepuce," British Journal of Dermatology, 1969.

24. Cleary, D. G. and Kohl, S., "Overwhelming infection with group B beta-hemolytic streptococcus associated with circumcision," Pediatrics, Vol 64, no 3, (September 1979), pp. 301-303.

25. Williams and Kapila, "Complications of Circumcision," British Journal of Surgery, Oct 1993.

26. Diamond, M. and Sigmundson, H. K., "Sex Reassignment at Birth," Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 1997.

27. Money, J., "Ablatio Penis: Normal Male Infant Sex-Reassigned as a Girl," Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1975.

28. Bradley, S. J. et al, "Experiment of Nurture: Ablatio Penis at 2 Months, Sex Reassignment at 7 months, and a Psychosexual Follow-up in Young Adulthood," Pediatrics 1998.

29. "Baby bleeds to death after circumcision," Miami Herald, June 21, 1993.

30. "Boy in coma most of his 6 years dies," Associated Press, July 10, 1992.

31. "Circumcision that didn't heal kills boy," NewsNet5 - Cleveland, Ohio, October 20, 1998.

32. "Permanent foreshortening and disfigurement of the penis," Associated Press, November 30, 1995.

33. Palmer, J. M. and Link, D., "Impotence following anesthesia for elective circumcision," JAMA 1979; 241:2635-6.

34. Pearlman, C. K., "Reconstruction Following Iatrogenic Burn of the Penis," Journal of Pediatric Surgery 11 (1976): 121-122.

35. Persad, R. et al., "Clinical Presentation and Pathophysiology of Meatal Stenosis Following Circumcision," Brit Journal of Urology 75, 1995.

36. Lerner, B. L., "Amputation of the penis as a complication of circumcision," Med Rec Ann 1952; 46: 229-31.

37. Levitt, S. B., Smith R. B., Ship A.G,. "Iatrogenic microphallus secondary to circumcision," Urology 1976; 8: 472-4.

38. Gearhart, J. P. and Rock, J. A., "Total Ablation of the Penis after Circumcision with Electrocautery: A Method of Management and Long-Term Followup," Journal of Urology 142 (1989): 799-801.

39. Gluckman, G. R. et al., "Newborn Penile Glans Amputation during Circumcision and Successful Reattachment," Journal of Urology 153 (1995): 778.

40. Kaplan, G. W., "Complications of Circumcision," Urologic Clinics of North America 10, 1983.

41. Stefan, H., "Reconstruction of the Penis Following Necrosis from Circumcision Used High Frequency Cutting Current," Sbornik Vedeckych Praci Lekarske Fakulty Karlovy Univerzity (Hradci Kralove) vol. 35, no. 5 (Suppl) 1992, pp. 449-454.

42. Strimling, B. S., "Partial Amputation of Glans Penis during Mogen Clamp Circumcision," Pediatrics 87 (1996): 906-907.

43. Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," Lancet 349 (1997): 599-603.

44. Talarico, R. D. and Jasaitis, J. E., "Concealed Penis: A Complication of Neonatal Circumcision," Journal of Urology 110 (1973): 732-733.

45. Kirkpatrick, B. V. and Eitzman, D. V., "Neonatal Septicemia after Circumcision," Clinical Pediatrics 13 (1974): 767-768.

46. Lee L.D., and Millar A.J.W. "Ruptured bladder following circumcision using Plastibell device," British Journal of Urology 1990; 65: 216-17.

47. Cansever, G., "Psychological effects of circumcision," Br J Med Psychol 1965; 38: 321-31.

48. Marshall, R. E. et al., "Circumcision: II. Effects upon Mother-Infant Interaction," Early Human Development , 1982.

49. Goldman, R., "Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma," Vanguard Publications, 1997.

50. Prescott, J. W., "Genital Pain vs. Genital Pleasure: Why the One and Not the Other?" Truth Seeker 1 (1989): 14-21.

51. Immerman, R. S. and Mackey, W.C., "A Proposed Relationship Between Circumcision and Neural Reorganization," Journal of Genetic Psychology, 1998.

[Odyssey]

Kazan, it isn't all that intellectually dishonest. After all, now to one-up you, here's circinfo's reference list:
http://www.circinfo.net/htmlnew/references.htm

It's got all of 256 references to your 51. If you want to base everything on how many references sites have, that's fine by me.

[Woolie Wool]

It's not the number of references but the quality of them that matters.

[Kazan]

The Format shall be

Reference Item # -- Invalidation reason

• 1 --- Appeal to Irrelevant Authority, not a source of medical knowledge
  
• 1a --- Dubious Study, study is not accepted by major medical organizations, correlation does not prove causation
  
• 2 -- Dubious Study, out of data, no support from MMOs
  
• 3 -- Irrevelant Data
  
• 4 -- Superceded , AAP has declared this statement as invalid and has superceded it
  
• 9 -- Dubious Study, study was not controlled for all variables (participants behavioral partterns)
  
• 15 and 16 -- Irrevelant Authority not a source of medical information
  
• 17 -- Dubious Study
  
• 18 -- Study out of context
  
  

The first 20 (really 21) contained 10 that could be eliminated by the rules of formal logic without in depth analysis!

---------

I smell pwnage

[Odyssey]

I wouldn't base something on number of references, either. It just seemed Kazan was, at first, doing so. So I replied in suit ^_^
Kazan, I'm not really questioning the validity of your sources. I'm merely trying to find the alternative, and there always is one. And comparing your view and the alternative objectively, currently I see yours as a better argument. So well done.

...However, an entire thread where I continually agreed with you would be a little less interesting, no?