Author Topic: Do Aliens exist?  (Read 4443 times)

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Offline Deepblue

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Yes.
Another question though:
What do Aliens look like?

 

Offline Beowulf

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h


Bold, considerring creation is even more far fetched...


:wtf: I think all he was saying was that evolution as a theory is farfetched and a theory--correct on both accounts. How is this bold? It is merely stating the obvious. Why must we accept the only *scientific* theory offered to us?

Ever here of comsmologists talk of dark matter? If there is ANYTHING that smells of snake-oil, it is "darkmatter". The whole problem of *Newtonian* physics applied to galactic distances can be solved with a revision of Newtonian physics, called MONDO, a simple solution.

Why must we accept evolution? There is no proof of Macro-evolution at all. None. Only theories and skeletons which resemble one another. If there was proof it wouldn't be a theory.

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Offline StratComm

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Saying it is a theory is true.  Saying that it is a far-fetched theory, on the other hand, isn't.  It's been a mainstay of life-sciences for over 100 years, so that fact alone has to tell you it's plausable and a lot more likely than anything else that has been suggested.  Everything from those bone structures you are talking about to DNA analysis, everything that has come out of the study of biology supports some form of evolution theory.  It may not fit Darwinian theory, sure, but that's not the gold standard of evolutionary theory by any means.  There are literally mountains of solid evidence that support evolution.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Shrike

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Dark matter has been detected, you know.

MACHOs are one - MAssive Compact Halo Ojects.  Brown dwarves that form a halo around our galaxy.

Other forms of dark matter include intergalactic hydrogen clouds, rogue black holes, etc.  Possibly exotic matter but there's no known way to detect that yet so the existence or not of exotic matter is still a theory.

Don't give 'Dark Matter' mystical properties, like one pound of it being as heavy as ten thousand pounds of normal matter.

What do you suggest instead of evolution then?
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Offline Stealth

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Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
Yes.
Another question though:
What do Aliens look like?


hey don't get too ahead of yourself,
we haven't even finished arguing about whether they exist yet :D :D

 

Offline Stealth

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Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
they had a word for car

well it has like hitler, and death and a whole bunch of other words related to him, the holocost and WW2 around his name,


but remember, as an0n said, if you have enough information to search through, you're going to find something interesting... it's like he said, when you're looking through a small 'wordsearch' and you find words that are just coincidentally thrown in.

 

Offline Beowulf

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Dark matter has been detected, you know.

MACHOs are one - MAssive Compact Halo Ojects.  Brown dwarves that form a halo around our galaxy.

Other forms of dark matter include intergalactic hydrogen clouds, rogue black holes, etc.  Possibly exotic matter but there's no known way to detect that yet so the existence or not of exotic matter is still a theory.

Don't give 'Dark Matter' mystical properties, like one pound of it being as heavy as ten thousand pounds of normal matter.

What do you suggest instead of evolution then?


When has it been detected? It has been theorized to exist--the whole prinicple behind dark matter is that it can't be detected. Science uses dark matter as a scapegoat, blaming all inconsistancies on it.

I do believe that evolution is possible, however I am careful to doubt it. All of our knowledge of the physical world points to the decay of systems, not the synthesis of systems. While I believe micro (an organism as an already complex system may adapt) I am slow to believe macro as currently theorized.

Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Saying it is a theory is true.  Saying that it is a far-fetched theory, on the other hand, isn't.  It's been a mainstay of life-sciences for over 100 years, so that fact alone has to tell you it's plausable and a lot more likely than anything else that has been suggested.  Everything from those bone structures you are talking about to DNA analysis, everything that has come out of the study of biology supports some form of evolution theory.  It may not fit Darwinian theory, sure, but that's not the gold standard of evolutionary theory by any means.  There are literally mountains of solid evidence that support evolution.


Could you point me to any evidence that supports macro-evolution?

The problem with macro-evolution is that it does not explain species-to-species development, its intended goal. The root of this issue rests in the transistion between a single-celled organism to a many-celled organism. How do the cells know how to specialize? Since not one specialized cell can exist on it own, how would it not be killed off by other cells as it transforms into something useless? Surely any mutation would not yield an immediate result of success. How does the eye develop in conjunction with the brain, the brain with the heart, the heart with the tissue of the artery and blood itself? This kind of synthesis of system from within a system is completely unheard of in the natural world.

The whole fallacy of evolution as a understanding of the creation of life (the cell--not the evolution of it) is the idea of decay. The cell itself is a living thing, in truth the basis of all biological theory. However, biology claims that all life comes from cells, and can only come from the cell. A creature is not alive unless it consists of the smallest instance of life--the cell. How then, does one create a cell? How do chemicals come together instantaneously to create a stable system that can act on its own volition? THIS is the problem of evolution, something many refuse to touch.

To solve this we must solve this question: what is life? How is it defined? What gives man the ability to think and recognize his existance? The cell is no different. In a small measure, however small, it recoginzes its own existance. It responds to its enviroment for its own betterment. How do chemicals reach this stage?

Evidence of this I would love to see.

MHO.


~Beowulf
« Last Edit: November 23, 2003, 07:34:00 pm by 1189 »
Never Forget

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Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by Beowulf
When has it been detected? It has been theorized to exist--the whole prinicple behind dark matter is that it can't be detected. Science uses dark matter as a scapegoat, blaming all inconsistancies on it.
[/b]http://wwwmacho.mcmaster.ca/

[q]The MACHO Project is a collaboration between scientists at the Mt. Stromlo & Siding Spring Observatories, the Center for Particle Astrophysics at the Santa Barbara, San Diego, & Berkeley campuses of the University of California, and the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Our primary aim is to test the hypothesis that a significant fraction of the dark matter in the halo of the Milky Way is made up of objects like brown dwarfs or planets: these objects have come to be known as MACHOs, for MAssive Compact Halo Objects. The signature of these objects is the occasional amplification of the light from extragalactic stars by the gravitational lens effect. The amplification can be large, but events are extremely rare: it is necessary to monitor photometrically several million stars for a period of years in order to obtain a useful detection rate. For this purpose we have built a two channel system that employs eight 2048*2048 CCDs, mounted on the 50 inch telescope at Mt. Stromlo. The high data rate (several GBytes per night) is accommodated by custom electronics and on-line data reduction.

We have taken ~27,000 images with this system since June 1992. Analysis of a subset of these data has yielded databases containing light curves in two colors for 8 million stars in the LMC and 10 million in the bulge of the Milky Way. A search for microlensing has turned up four candidates toward the Large Magellanic Cloud and 45 toward the Galactic Bulge. Papers describing these results can be found in the Publications section of the MACHO Web page. [/q]Furthermore, dark matter is not indetectible - it is merely matter that does not shine of its own accord but can be detected gravitationally.  Thus the Earth is, technically speaking, dark matter.

Oh, and on the note of systems always decay, that is not true.  There is no thermodynamic law that prohibits the formation of life and other complex systems, so long as the total entropy of the universe increases.
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Offline Bobboau

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micro evolution
hehehehahahahhAHAHAAAA
if hehehmm...
if I were to give you some inconrivertable evedence of macro evolution you would just give it a diferent lable and say it isn't a valid example
"no that isn't macro evolution, thats... pink... evolution, and therefor invalid, yes"
if it changes something by passing paretal traits through heredity its evolution, no prefix.
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Offline phreak

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where the hell is woolie when you need him

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what the **** did i just say :nervous:
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Offline StratComm

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Quote
Originally posted by PhReAk
where the hell is woolie when you need him

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what the **** did i just say :nervous:

No, that makes perfect sense.  He's a perfectly valid example of evolution gone horribly wrong.

EDIT:  I hate when that happens.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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Life could form because the heat of the sun decreased entropy on earth(while the entropy of the sun increases).

But by looking at the background radiation the sun should not have formed at all- the real question is why the background radiation is so uniform, while the universe is just the opposite (some fluctuations have been detected, but evidently not enough, someone correct me if I'm wrong). The cosmic string theory is one explaination.

Beowulf: Proteins can form microspheres that resemble cell membranes. Adenine has been created by electrical discharges in a lab (similar to say, lightning from volcanic clouds of early earth). The conditions of earth would have produced ever more complex molecules. The first life was probably just molecules that produced copies of themselves when reacting.

As for multicellular life, there are protists and single-celled fungi that live in groups (colonies is the name). Only a short mutation from there to specialized cells.

As long as you account for the creation of galaxies life is inevitable.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2003, 10:46:52 pm by 490 »
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Offline Deepblue

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Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Vega
"You who speak languages, you are such liars."-The Hive Queen

A bit OT but is that from the Enders Game?

 

Offline Mr. Vega

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It's from Xenocide, 3rd book in the series.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Deepblue

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Great books.

 

Offline Ulala

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Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
Great books.


:yes:
I am a revolutionary.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Redheads are proof that God can't decide if he hates us or loves us.


Go deeper - this is proof that God loves us:

[q]Genesis 2:18,22:

'And the LORD God said, "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." ... Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.'[/q]

:D
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Bobboau

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wow that was a truly efeshent means of killing this thread
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Offline Sandwich

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Thank you, thank you - I'm here 'till Thursday! ;)
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline neo_hermes

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