[kasperl]

on the cockpit thing, why don't you make it in 3D and import a render?

[Nico]

Yeah, that's possible, but then can you tell me what's the darn f'cking point in using a 2D cockpit if you have already a 3D one?

[aldo_14]

touche........

[KARMA]

well, lemme think...
an excellent looking 3d cockpit will probably cause more performance hit than an excellent looking 2d one, moslty because the 3d one will probably require thousands of polys.
And as far as I can see the only things that may look better in the 3d cockpit (in a comparison between excellent 2d and 3d cockpits) are inertia (like starlancer) that is as cool as irrealistic, and lighting.
On the other hand a 3D cockpit should be faster to be built than a 2d one, and it could be done by more people and in less time than the 2d one.
But even a 3D cockpit will require a lot of textures work to look halfway decent without using true materials and 10k polys, and they will have to be custom textures, wich can't be done by everyone. Actually if you are able to draw those textures you should be able to create a whole 2d cockpit too.
Personally I think that for example you, nico, should be able to create an excellent 2d cockpit (maybe mixing a render and photoshop work).
I also think that I should be able to create a good 2d cockpit, I already used photoshop to create 2d images of complex 3d objects, with good results, so I should be able to do it ....in 2 or three months, probably more..... (not to mention that my pc will explode if I try to create an image of the size and complexity we are talking about)
I think that even if it was possible to add em, I won't start making ship specific cockpits, either 2d and 3d, since I consider em surely cool but too timewasting and not so addictive to be worth the work.
It could be interesting the possibility to make something simple as an optional cockpit for SCP, something that could be shared, I mean just the crossbars (maybe 3d) and maybe a glass effect, like if the cockpit is projected on the window, something like WC:prophecy.
I may also be interested in giving my contribute in an eventual team project to create just a couple of good cockpits that could be given to SCP, I just don't want to waste time creating on my own many different cockpits for different ships

[Nico]

Originally posted by KARMA
the 3d one will probably require thousands of polys.

cool, a huge post to which I can reply with one word that will render all the rest wrong:
no.
But that would suck, so i'll elaborate a bit more:
A good cockpit mesh, I can do one with much less than the 800 polys I use for a ship ( if you want I can make an exemple, will take 30 minutes max ). Then for the maps, don't take me for an idiot, the deal would be the same than for ships: some people ( I, you, Bob, Aldo, name anyone you want ), will make some generic maps, then everybody will do like they do for ships: they'll use those maps, they'll never bother doing new ones.
And that makes it all much simpler, isn't it?

[kasperl]

venom/nico, there seems already to be a coding solutions for a 2D cockpit, and when you have a 3D one, you also have a good 2D one. it's not the performance drain on the comp per se, it is also the perfomence drain on the coders.

[KARMA]

but venom, I have no doubts that you can do a 3d one with very few polys, the point is, will it look good?
I remember for example the low poly cockpits of starlancer, and they just suck.
Ok, they suffered of crap maps, but still they were...crap.
An halfway decent 2d cockpit would have been anytime better.
And if you go with a low poly cockpit, you just have to increase a lot the time spent on the textures, with minimal differences with the time spent for a 2d one (maybe built from a render of an high poly 3d cockpit).
And what you get as counterpart? the inertia effect may be cool the first time you see it, but then it become annoying and irrealistic.
And if you don't have the cockpit moving from the viewpoint (so if it keep still), the only difference that you can notice between a 3d cockpit and a 2d image rendered from  the same cockpit, is the light, wich is obviously better with an relatively high poly cockpit rather than with a low poly one.
If this is worth the (even minimal) performance loss, I really don't know.... I'm just a bit perplex about what is the best way to go

[Nico]

Well, if there's no solutions for rendering a 3D object in FS2, I'm sooooooo sorry, my mistake .

edit: and Karma: yes, it will look good. Sorry, don't have the time to answer to your whole post, my father's calling me.

[kasperl]

Look Venom, off course there are way's to render the stuff, but another solution is already there, and what is the problem with doing something that might require a bit more work for the modder (one render and one conversion) for fairly little result (lighting and a few effects, as KARMA said)? It might cost you a whole of 30 minutes more, and it might save the coders days.

[Unknown Target]

2D sucks. Face it, if you're gonna go through the trouble of coding in a cockpit, it might as WELL be a 3D one. I'm agreeing with venom here, and saying that if a cockpit goes in, it should be 3D.

If you think that it will be such a huge performance hit, check out ANY recent flight sim's 3D cockpits. They don't kill your computer at all, and it's not like it could do much worse than with the specular lighting, bump-mapping, etc., at least if it's rendered ONLY for the player flying the ship.

[Nico]

Oh ****, if you want your 2D cockpits so badly, why would I try and convince you that it's possible to make a nice looking 3D cockpit. You don't want to even understand that it's possible and even quite easy, so I give up. Just to say that whatever you do, just imagine it, a 2D cockpit in FS2, that'll look crap.
And in the meanwhile, check that link, lok at the horrible 3D cockpits :
http://www.darksaber.freeserve.co.uk/craftxwaupreb.htm

[kasperl]

ok, i am not saying that 3D is bad, i am saying the advanatge of 3D over 2D is minimal. look at FS2004, the differnec between the normal cockpit and the virtual one is not all that much if you just look straight ahead, it just uses simpler textures.

[Lightspeed]

I dont know why everyone is so obsessed with 3D.

A 2D cockpit will actually look better AND it will save performance, not to mention there'll be less problems with it.

-.edit: and yes, those 3D cockpits don't look very pretty. Something you could wham together in ~20 minutes in 2D.

[KARMA]

venom, in xwa you can rotate the point of view and look the cockpit at 360°, so it has more sense to make a 3d cockpit there.
wich doesn't mean that an eventual 3d cockpit in fs2 won't have sense.
Plus (having seen many stuff from DS) I doubt this one is exactly a "low poly" cockpit, and althought being surely nice, I have also to say that this one just doesn't look realistic to me, it's a bit too cartoonist.
Wich doesn't necessarily mean to be caused by the cockpit being 3d.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
-.edit: and yes, those 3D cockpits don't look very pretty. Something you could wham together in ~20 minutes in 2D.

Go on, then. You've got--I'll tell you what, I'll give you a whole HOUR. Get busy. I want to see a good 2d cockpit that is better than the ones Venom linked by 4:37 EST.

Better get busy.

[phreak]

so is the IW2 cockpit 3d or 2d? i could have sworn it was 3d since it gets lit

[karajorma]

Nico. Why not just make the cockpit. That way you can shut up everyone who thinks it would look crap.

Even if the SCP never implement the feature we might be able to use it for renders or something

[mikhael]

Originally posted by PhReAk
so is the IW2 cockpit 3d or 2d? i could have sworn it was 3d since it gets lit

3d. Its a standard .pso, so you can replace it if you want.

[Nico]

Originally posted by karajorma
Nico. Why not just make the cockpit. That way you can shut up everyone who thinks it would look crap.

Even if the SCP never implement the feature we might be able to use it for renders or something

WHy bothering? They KNOW 2D is better. Showing such skills in being obtuse impresses, to be honest.
Oh, but I admit shwoing an Xwing cockpit isn't the best exemple ( coz even the real one is crappy as hell anyway).

[Flipside]

You can get similar effects to lighting by Hue adjusting the colours on the cockpit on a 2D bitmap, but 3D looks far far better.