[Beowulf]

Originally posted by mikhael
I'd like to see a permanent settlement on Luna first, then on Mars. Its easier to intervene in a catastrophe on Luna than it is with Mars, so we get to make and fix mistakes there first.

Everything we need to support life can be found on mars. This is not true for the moon.

[mikhael]

Everything we need to support life on the Moon can be built by refining regolith and/or a little bit of heavy lifting from Earth. The important thing is to not rush into putting people permanently on a rock that is, at various times, between 20 lightminutes and a couple of lighthours away. Its a huge distance if and when things screw up. We need more experience before we try to pull something like that off.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by mikhael
Everything we need to support life on the Moon can be built by refining regolith and/or a little bit of heavy lifting from Earth. The important thing is to not rush into putting people permanently on a rock that is, at various times, between 20 lightminutes and a couple of lighthours away. Its a huge distance if and when things screw up. We need more experience before we try to pull something like that off.

Light hours? When is Mars Light hours away?

[Knight Templar]

Odd.. considering the sun is something like 8 light minutes?

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Beowulf

 
I can't wait to go! Man do I love mars! Look at that first picture! Doesn't that just scream "new home" to you? Don't you want to go and colonize Mars, fight for basic survival while developing a base?

Damn. Mars is the future. Why doesn't anyone see that?


~Beowulf

I think the point I'm trying to get across with the pictures is that Mars is also potentialy the past as well.

And as far as colonies elsewhere in space, we should establish a permanent presence on the Moon first.  A large presence, on the order of  thousands, not dozens or a hundred.  Facilities could be build in tunnels cut from the surface.  Once we develop the tech to support large-scale populations and move such populations from the Earth to the Moon, it will be a simple matter of engineering to build a vehicle capable of traversing the distance from Earth to Mars.

[Beowulf]

There is no reason to colonize the moon first. Greenhouses cannot be easily assembled and used on the moon (they will overheat and need to be considerable do to the moon's lack of atmosphere. Mars, however, needs only a slight increase in atmospheric pressure (on the order of a few millibars) to support liquid water. Greenhouses on Mars would reach a comfortable 70-80 degrees F, whereas the moon's would need to be cooled.

As far as we know, the richest soil in the system exists on Mars. Martian soil is more fertail than the finest Earth soil.

Martian Soil contains at least 1% volume water, which is an extremely conservative estimate considering Viking findings suggest upwards of 5-7%.

And so on. Martian atmosphere can be converted into methane for propulsion and water for consumption. This can be done with gas-light era technology.

All this can be done with as little as a light truck, loader, and automated fuel plants that merely sip the atmosphere and convert it.

In terms of transportation, there is almost no correlation between a Mars mission and Lunar mission. Both would have greatly different needs.


~Beowulf.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Beowulf
In terms of transportation, there is almost no correlation between a Mars mission and Lunar mission. Both would have greatly different needs.

Actually, if you think about it, the drive technology that would be devoloped to move large amounts of cargo to and from the moon would be ideal to transfer a similarly massed vehicle from one orbit to another.  The scale is all that is different.  

Also, the life support systems developed for long term habitation of the Moon would need little, if any, modification for the trip.

It basically comes down to the scale of the mission.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by karajorma


Light hours? When is Mars Light hours away?

My mistake. I misremembered something I read somewhere. I just looked it up. Assuming circular orbits, 21 light minutes at opposition. 4 light minutes when we're really close. Of course, since the orbits are slightly elliptical, the greatest projected works out closer to about 27 light minutes. The important detail is not the exact number, but the fact that the number is measured in light minutes, not light seconds.

Even at the closest point, Mars is always going to be at least several months travel from Earth. In the event of catastrophe, a team on Mars is screwed because they've got no realistic backup. With the moon, you can put a payload on the regolith within 48hrs. That makes it the better choice for a first step. Make the mistakes where you can try to fix them before you risk lives in a place where there's no possiblity of delivering a fix in a reasonable time.

[StratComm]

As far as a viable colony goes, Mars is clearly the best option in the Solar System.  For a first-step base, the moon is the only option.  They are different missions, with vastly different needs even after everything is moved.  A moon base would not have to be self-sufficient, while a Mars base could much more easily achieve those requirements.  A moon base would let us test things in a vacuum and has a relatively small gravity well to climb out of for missions elsewhere in the solar system, while Mars looks a lot like earth from a gravitational perspective.  The list goes on...  However, I think that in order to be able to send a colony to Mars, you'd have to have at least as many people on the moon first.

EDIT: And currently, Mars is something like 2 light minutes away.  At it's greatest distance from Earth, it does take something like 45 minutes for transmissions to go round trip, but that's not the same as .75 light hours away.  The distance is half the length of time it takes to "ping" one planet from the other, if you think about it.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Beowulf

As far as we know, the richest soil in the system exists on Mars. Martian soil is more fertail than the finest Earth soil.

You forget that much of Mars isn't soil. Its rather like lunar regolith with a higher iron content and a lower nickel content. What soil there is to be found (and there is lots of it) is indeed rich, but its also saturated with caustic compounds of oxygen that would prevent using for growing anything without serious processing.

[Liberator]

I suggest that everyone re-read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", it presents a fairly well-rounded picture of how a moon base should work and some potential benefits.

[mikhael]

I hate to say it, but a lot of TMiaHM's lunar colony is based on madeup silliness. Heinlein didn't give it a lot of thought, preferring to focus on the society instead.

[kasperl]

Originally posted by mikhael


You forget that much of Mars isn't soil. Its rather like lunar regolith with a higher iron content and a lower nickel content. What soil there is to be found (and there is lots of it) is indeed rich, but its also saturated with caustic compounds of oxygen that would prevent using for growing anything without serious processing.

this just reminds me of ancient Cartaghe, after the Romans, they destroyed the city, leaving only rubble, and they sowed the fields with salt.

if you are realistic though, the economic plausibility of any mission is very low. what is there to be found on Mars to warrant the energy cost of a round trip?

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by kasperl
what is there to be found on Mars to warrant the energy cost of a round trip?

That's what they're trying to find out.

[Singh]

Originally posted by Unknown Target


China, Japan, Britain, Germany, and China. That's not that many.


It's all relative.

Dont forget the ISRO

[Singh]

Karajoma - that article was quite interesting. Are there any actual pictures of Venus that the later probes took?

[karajorma]

I did see some on the TV program. It doesn't look even as interesting as Mars though.

[StratComm]

Once you get below cloud level on venus, there isn't much to see anyway.  The atmosphere is so thick that you'd just get a brown nothingness in front of any camera.

[mikhael]

Oh, I don't know about that, Strat. Venera managed to get a picture from the surface.