Poll

Which higher power do you worship?

God and/or Jesus
29 (32.2%)
Allah
2 (2.2%)
Shiva, Vishnu and et al
0 (0%)
Buddah (doesn't really count as worship, I know)
5 (5.6%)
The State (communist/nazi idea IIRC)
0 (0%)
Science
6 (6.7%)
The Almighty Dollar
2 (2.2%)
I don't worship ANY invisible dude(s) in the sky - AKA atheist/agnostic
38 (42.2%)
Bill Gates
2 (2.2%)
Other
6 (6.7%)

Total Members Voted: 88

Voting closed: February 26, 2004, 10:54:00 am

Author Topic: Religion in the modern world  (Read 77891 times)

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Offline Rictor

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Religion in the modern world
You didn't find that teacher to be hot?

Hmm, guess its only me...

 

Offline aldo_14

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Religion in the modern world
Quote

Order this tract
Chick tracts come in packages of 25.
Just enter the quantity you want, such as "25" or "50" in the box below.

Prices are in US Dollars
   
English   ($0.14 )    
 


Isn;t there something about chucking moneylenders and marketeers out of the temple in the bible?

 

Offline Zarax

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Religion in the modern world
Yes, but they after that became the church
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Offline Grey Wolf

Religion in the modern world
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
The Old TEstament was passed on verbally for hundereds of years before it was written down, and even then it passed trough kazillion priests....

The New Testament was written practicly imediately and a large part was written by the apostols themselves and materials from the new Testament were guarded durin the Roman persecutions. It is therefeore far more belivable then the Old Testament, Kuran or other similar books...
Even then, priest still tended to interpret things according to their own needs (Inquisition), alltough the text remained the same....

...You know what...this is starting to really bore me...I know what I know, you belive what you want...see if I care...
SIGNING OFF....
The Koran was actually written by Mohammed. You knew that, right? Whereas the New Testament was written about 20-50 years after the death of Christ, at a minimum?
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Offline karajorma

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Exactly. If we are saying that the time a holy book had to be altered by other people is the important factor than the Koran is more likely to be truthful since it was written by the actual prophet himself.
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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
The Koran was actually written by Mohammed. You knew that, right? Whereas the New Testament was written about 20-50 years after the death of Christ, at a minimum?


Wow, this is still going. :)

Ummm, what is your evidence for the Koran being written by Mohammed? To my knowledge, the Koran (lit. "recitations") were actually recordings of Mohammed (actually, I think it's spelled Muhammad) by his follwers when he was speaking, often in a state of trance (why he could not always record his own words).

By the way, GW, would you know the dates after death of the rest of the major bibliographies of historical figures were written? People like Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Plato?
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Offline Stryke 9

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A lot of the info about Caesar came from the time of Caesar, actually, which is partly the problem. You don't say much of any use about the guy who could have you executed on the spot for pissing him off.

 

Offline mikhael

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Religion in the modern world
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh

Ummm, what is your evidence for the Koran being written by Mohammed? To my knowledge, the Koran (lit. "recitations") were actually recordings of Mohammed (actually, I think it's spelled Muhammad) by his follwers when he was speaking, often in a state of trance (why he could not always record his own words).


I have to respond here to point out where you're correct and incorrect, Steak.

First, the Prophet was illiterate. He could not have written his words down himself. He would have required a scribe. His illiteracy is an important facet of al-Islam:
Quote

It was there one night toward the end of his quiet month that the first revelation came to him when hew was forty years old. He was asleep or in a trance when he heard a voice say: "Read!"
He said: "I cannot read."
The voice said again: "Read!"
He said: "I cannot read."
A third time the voice, more terrible, commanded: "Read!"
He said: "What can I read?"
The voice said: "Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth. Createth man from a clot. Read: And it is they Lord the Most Bountiful, Who teacheth by the pen, Teacheth man that which he knew not."
When he awoke the words remained "as if inscribed upon his heart"

The voice, of course, is Gabriel bringing Allah's word to Mohammed.

Al-Qu'ran does not mean "the recitations". It is closer to "The Reading" or "The Lecture", and is analogous to "Scripture" in the sense of holy writings.

There are two sets of writings from the Prophet. The first are the trance transcriptions--the words of Allah, which are held seperate from the transcriptions of the Prophet's own words.

The transcriptions of al-Qu'ran, to my mind, are probably the most likely to be 'faithful' to the original. Whilst the Prophet could not, himself, verify their accuracy, he also taught all the words of al-Qu'ran to anyone who wanted to learn them. Many, apparently learned the words verbatim. These people would be able to guage the accuracy of the transcriptions. Further, they could discuss the transcriptions with the Prophet himself, to assure themselves and each other that they were accurate. I do not, of course, make any claim to the actual veracity of the transcriptions, only the logical likelihood of their accuracy.

If you have any questions about al-Qu'ran, I keep a copy here by my desk. I suppose I ought to keep a copy of the Bible as well, for these discussions. I'm just not sure which one I should get.
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Offline Styxx

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Religion in the modern world
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
...often in a state of trance...


So, a whole religion spawned from the ramblings of a stoned guy?

Why am I not surprised?

:p
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Offline Kazan

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Don't be a dick, DG. That's an0n, Kaz and ZB's jobs.

Let him concede defeat gracefully.


i resent that statement
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Offline aldo_14

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handbags at 12 paces!

 

Offline mikhael

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No, Kaz. you RESEMBLE that statement. ;)

You gotta admit, Kaz, you can be a real dick when when you know you're right. ;)
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Offline Knight Templar

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Hey! I can be a real cock too! I just sort of, well... slack.
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Offline Kazan

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mikhael: yes i can be very ruthless when i know i'm completely and utterly right
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Offline Knight Templar

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Hehe, you're such a dick. :D
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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
If you have any questions about al-Qu'ran, I keep a copy here by my desk. I suppose I ought to keep a copy of the Bible as well, for these discussions. I'm just not sure which one I should get.


Cheers, those other facts are quite appreciated. However, I have heard conflicting definitions of the meaning of the name of the book, so I listed the one I'd heard more references for (from Muslims, that is).

On another note: no kidding about the Qu'ran on your desk? You read Arabic?
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Offline aldo_14

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Shouldnt you keep a copy up on the highest surface in the room, tho?

 

Offline mikhael

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Religion in the modern world
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


Cheers, those other facts are quite appreciated. However, I have heard conflicting definitions of the meaning of the name of the book, so I listed the one I'd heard more references for (from Muslims, that is).

On another note: no kidding about the Qu'ran on your desk? You read Arabic?


Mine is the english translation done by Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall. Its the first translation done by a native English speaking, non-middle-eastern Muslim. He warns in the preface notes that this is NOT al-Qu'ran, as that sacred book can only be written in arabic for several linguistic and literary reasons. Its nicely annotated and is careful to note where the wording may not match precisely to the original meaning.

Yes, I keep a copy of al-Qu'ran on my desk, right next to a book on Australian aboriginal culture and mythology. I need to get a King James Bible and whichever Bible the Catholic church considers "proper", as well as the Torah. I've got some miscellaneous books on Buddhism, Taoism, Hindu, though none of the 'official' books. I've also got a couple books on Confuscius and the Analects. I groove on religion, mythology and philosophy.

Every Sunday in boot camp, navy recruits are given the opportunity to go worship at the non-denominational chapel. I figured I had nothing better to do on Sunday mornings, so I took to going to services held by the chaplains of various religions. My favorite was the Muslim chaplain, for various reasons (chief among which is he didn't try to convert me, only educate me). Unfortunately, there was no Jewish chaplain on staff at the time. The Muslim chaplain gave me this translation of al-Qu'ran and I read it throughout boot camp. I've had it now for ten years. I even carried it with me when I was stationed in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, a stone's throw from Mecca. As I am not really Muslim, I was unable to actually go and visit Mecca, but I was fortunate enough to be there during Ramadan.

I can read a very, very little arabic, but mostly its in the same vein as the kanji, hiragana and katakana I can read: survival symbols, road signs, shop signs and menus. :D
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Offline Grey Wolf

Religion in the modern world
My entire comment was based on the blatant ignorance of fact in the post I was quoting, specifically the fact that he was saying that the New Testament would be closer to the specific words and acts of Jesus than the Koran/Quran would be to the acts of Mohammed. Sorry for my own factual inncacuracies.
You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?" -George Bernard Shaw

 

Offline TrashMan

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Ha ha, we proved you wrong :D

OK, so we've got Lib and Trash to stand down... who's next?


In your dreams......No one short of GOD himself can prove me wrong!:D :drevil:
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!