[karajorma]

The various religous threads that are running at the moment threw up a question I've wondered about a couple of times and I'd appreciate an explaination for.

Marriage is supposed to be a till death do us part thing in the christian tradition. When you die you're reunited in heaven.

One thing I've never understood is why the church allows remarriage after a spouse dies. If you really believe that when you die you'll be reunited with your dead loved ones how do you choose between your two wives? What if you've been unlucky enough to lose several wives? Do you get to build up a harem in heaven?

I'd be interested in hearing from non-christians on this one too

[Nico]

I'd be more interested in hearing from christians on it

[karajorma]

Oh I want to hear from them for certain

[Setekh]

Christians believe that we will be reunited in heaven, but not reunited in marriage. Marriage (ie. the closest relationship that can ever be formed between two people) here on earth is only meant to be an echo, or a shadow, or a foretaste of the marriage between God and his chosen people - together in relationship forever. So in heaven, the 'foretaste' will be gone, because the real thing has arrived. Get it?

In any case, this question was actually raised when Jesus was walking around and people were trying to think up questions that he wouldn't be able to answer. Here's a quote from Matthew, this is the 22nd chapter, verses 23-33:

[q]23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[1] ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching. [/q]

Anyway, that's the Christian view.

[Nico]

and that's supposed to be an answer?

[Setekh]

Okay, to be clearer:

If you really believe that when you die you'll be reunited with your dead loved ones how do you choose between your two wives?
You won't have to choose between either wife because you will not be married to either of them if you are in heaven.

What if you've been unlucky enough to lose several wives? Do you get to build up a harem in heaven?
No, you don't, because the only marriage there is in heaven is between God himself and his people.

[Nico]

so the "reunited in heaven" part is bull?

[Setekh]

Reunited in heaven, absolutely. But the reunification that is (literally) infinitely more important is with God. Christians believe that the purpose of a created soul is to be in perfect relationship with its creator. So picture this: your whole family ends up in heaven. God, the perfect creator of the universe is there. If he really is worth calling God, all else would fade into insignificance. Sure, you'll have relationships with other poeple, but they will be good because you're in relationship with the creator of relationships.

[Nico]

and that's supposed to be attractive? hell for me, please

[Setekh]

Depends on your definition of attractive, Venom.

[aldo_14]

Think i prefer the option of reincarnation.

[karajorma]

So to put it in more earthly terms you'll be too high to care that both of your now ex-wives are in heaven with you?

One other thing steak I doubt that most christians believe that cause I doubt that a lot of them have thought about it that deeply You hear most people talk about heaven and it just sounds like Earth++

Still leaves me wondering what Jehovah's witnesses (who don't believe that they'll automatically live in heaven) think

[Setekh]

Reincarnation has a few very interesting points. The main bummer I can think of is that people hardly ever learn from their past lives. Like, supposing they can even progress to the stage  of belief and understanding in the workings of Buddhism (unless you're talking about reincarnation just 'on its own')  thought where they say to themselves: "okay, I'm a grasshopper this time, I must have screwed up last time", they still can't really learn much from what has passed. Especially with the idea of reincarnation a la Buddhism, if someone could clear this up for me that would be nice. What part of 'you' is it that is reincarnated into each different being after the life/death cycle? Because from my understanding, you'd become something intrinsically different in transferring from, say, a non-moral animal to a moral human. Or what is the Buddhist stance of the morality among animals? Is their suffering, like human suffering, caused by greed, and if so whose? Humans' or other animals or both?

And besides, why exactly do you prefer that option over others, aldo?

[Setekh]

Originally posted by karajorma
So to put it in more earthly terms you'll be too high to care that both of your now ex-wives are in heaven with you?

One other thing steak I doubt that most christians believe that cause I doubt that a lot of them have thought about it that deeply You hear most people talk about heaven and it just sounds like Earth++

I wouldn't say that you'd be too high. I'd say that you have your eyes and desires fixed on something which is higher than you and your ex-wives, the Object of whom marriage was designed to pre-empt, kinda thing.

Yeah, I realise that. You'll always find that some people prefer not to think too deeply about whatever they believe in - I know Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists, all sorts; and in none of the groups are 100% of them the type who question everything and will look for reasons why. In every area you will find people willing to just 'go along' with things, because they don't feel the need to question. I do think that it's a fallacy that heaven is a lot like Earth... as if it were just a super-charged version of Earth with better scenery and less pollution. But I encourage thinking about it on all occasions - if things only work when you don't think about them, that's pretty questionable.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Nico
and that's supposed to be attractive? hell for me, please

I never understood this viewpoint. By definition, hell isn't "fun". So why prefer it over heaven, which nobody really knows much about aside from that it will not have any sadness, tears, etc... ?

[Setekh]

I've wrestled with that too, Mike. I came to the conclusion that the only desirable thing about hell would be that it was your desired choice... but the fact is that the ramifications of that desired choice are so undesirable, it's like drinking a cup of bitter poison and being pleased and saying "hey, it tastes like crap, but I chose it!". Not that it entirely makes sense, but I haven't been offered a better explanation yet.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Sandwich


I never understood this viewpoint. By definition, hell isn't "fun". So why prefer it over heaven, which nobody really knows much about aside from that it will not have any sadness, tears, etc... ?

To me, it sounds like heaven is like being swallowed by a huge, mindless entity, and you'll become, well, nothing, after all, just some part of some huge, bloated thing. Not much for me.
anyway, I don't "prefer" anything, I don't believe in them, remember?

[Setekh]

That sounds more like the Buddhist absorption into the stream of consciousness than heaven. But I understand your point. I used to argue with that myself, saying: that's ridiculous, the Bible says we will all become like God eventually. Well, if we are all perfectly like God when we reach heaven, won't we all be identical? That would royally suck - I'd prefer to stay on earth where I could be different. But now my understanding of heaven is quite different - along the lines of we'll actually become more of ourselves than we were here.

I heard it explained like this once: if you lived in a land permanently covered by shadow, where everyone relied on hearing, touch, taste and smell to live rather than sight, you would get used to things. You would recognise people as different by the sound of their voices, the texture of their skin, their scent, and.. uhh... what they tasted like. Anyway, suppose you propose that they moved to a country where there is actual sunlight. But they protest, because they say, once you go into the light, won't you all look the same? After all, exactly the same light shines on everyone, therefore won't it bounce off everyone in the same manner and make everyone look the same? How would we tell them apart, where would there be individuality? Of course, we lightdwellers know that light actually brings out differences, it doesn't mute them. We don't become less when we enter God, we become more. That's how I think of it, anyway, it's an imperfect analogy but it helps.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Setekh
Yeah, I realise that. You'll always find that some people prefer not to think too deeply about whatever they believe in - I know Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists, all sorts; and in none of the groups are 100% of them the type who question everything and will look for reasons why. In every area you will find people willing to just 'go along' with things, because they don't feel the need to question. I do think that it's a fallacy that heaven is a lot like Earth... as if it were just a super-charged version of Earth with better scenery and less pollution. But I encourage thinking about it on all occasions - if things only work when you don't think about them, that's pretty questionable.

The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.

The famous explaination of Islamic heaven has a pretty good explaination though too. You get 20 virgins to keep you company. Who needs the wife?

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Nico


To me, it sounds like heaven is like being swallowed by a huge, mindless entity, and you'll become, well, nothing, after all, just some part of some huge, bloated thing. Not much for me.
anyway, I don't "prefer" anything, I don't believe in them, remember?

a) the Christian heaven is not that. We will have a deeper relationship with God. Sure there will be allot of people there, but God knows everyone one of them, including how many hairs they had on their heads! Now that spells out knowing.

As for marriage, it is temperal, and is meant for procreation (sex), happiness, and some other stuff I can't exactly think of ATM. In heaven ppl will be like angels and no procreation (sex) is needed.

Hell, I've heard several different things. One idea I heard was that in hell you'll be all alone, not that there won't be anyone else in hell, but it'll be like you are alone....forever. But whatever hell turns out to be it will be your choice to go there. God basiclly says choose me or or not me. If you don't choose me you'll end up alone/in hell, but if you choose me you'll end up in heaven. That may be a simplification of it, but it drives the point home.