Author Topic: Life, Death and Remarriages  (Read 2080 times)

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Offline Setekh

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.


Hmm, good question. If you can find out more from their site I'd be curious to learn.
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Offline HotSnoJ

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.

The famous explaination of Islamic heaven has a pretty good explaination though too. You get 20 virgins to keep you company. Who needs the wife? ;7
Well, JW's aren't christian either. I argued with one once. He was all over the place. He said the Bible was infallible, then he told me something else that I knew contridicted with the bible, I showed him the contridiction and he didn't even try to explain himself. He just moved right on to the next thing on his list. It was like talking with a movie. You can say whatever, but the moview will always say the same thing. :( sad really
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Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by Setekh

And besides, why exactly do you prefer that option over others, aldo? :)


I prefer the idea of still being 'me' (albeit a new version), than being in heaven.........  I mean, in heaven it's not like your existence means anything - you couldn't help people, or improve your life, or just basically have any impact, by the very definition of the place.  

But in this life, this 'plane of existence', it's all up to me.  I get the luxury of choosing who i am, and what I do to affect my life and that of others.

Sure, some of 'this' life is crap - but how can you measure happiness if you don't know sorrow?

 

Offline HotSnoJ

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Originally posted by aldo_14


I prefer the idea of still being 'me' (albeit a new version), than being in heaven.........  I mean, in heaven it's not like your existence means anything - you couldn't help people, or improve your life, or just basically have any impact, by the very definition of the place.  

But in this life, this 'plane of existence', it's all up to me.  I get the luxury of choosing who i am, and what I do to affect my life and that of others.

Sure, some of 'this' life is crap - but how can you measure happiness if you don't know sorrow?
But what if you're wrong? You'll end up in hell?!
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Offline Setekh

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Originally posted by HotSnoJ
But what if you're wrong? You'll end up in hell?!


HotSnoJ, as much as I appreciate your position (and I do), for now at least let's keep this thread thoughtful and not too personally confronting. I understand your motives, but really, what have you to gain by slapping aldo in the face with this sort of question? Besides, if what we believe is really true, then, thinking about it more will definitely help. If what we believe is not true (the remote possibility of which I am willing to admit, as I expect the same attitude of everyone else to whom I speak and reason with), then further thinking will expose untruth.

Now, aldo. I do see validity in a lot of what you say, particularly the "making no impact" bit, but I'm going to sleep soon. ;) However, I'll put this to you: is 'having an impact' the purpose of life, do you think? (Completely rhetorical. You can say yes if you like, I just know a lot of people who assume this without thinking, which bugs me.)

Secondly, how do children, many of whom we could arguably say have no real conception of what genuine sorrow is, have a concept of happiness? And additionally, do you suppose that you have to be simultaneously experiencing sorrow to have a true measure of happiness? Because as far as my understanding goes, heaven does not make you suddenly become asinine and make you lose your comprehension of what sorrow (which people in heaven will no doubt have experienced in this world) is like.
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Offline redmenace

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
One other thing steak I doubt that most christians believe that cause I doubt that a lot of them have thought about it that deeply :) You hear most people talk about heaven and it just sounds like Earth++

I usually abstain from threads like this because they usually end up in name calling, but yes most christians believe that the marriage relationship is dissolved after death. Not all christians are morons and never think about it at all. Some churches are very serious about teaching the bible and often go very deep with the meaning of things such as the disolution of marriage. But your first comment is right, also, karajorma, marriage is death do you part. It is a verbal contract. Unofrtunatly, no one looks at it the way :(
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Offline HotSnoJ

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Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


HotSnoJ, as much as I appreciate your position (and I do), for now at least let's keep this thread thoughtful and not too personally confronting. I understand your motives, but really, what have you to gain by slapping aldo in the face with this sort of question? Besides, if what we believe is really true, then, thinking about it more will definitely help. If what we believe is not true (the remote possibility of which I am willing to admit, as I expect the same attitude of everyone else to whom I speak and reason with), then further thinking will expose untruth..
Maybe I shouldn't have added "You'll end up in hell?!". But my main point was, "What if you're wrong?" Obviously if I'm wrong, depending on what aldo believes (not sure what it is), but if it's atheism, I'm going nowhere fast. I'm just dead.

Quote
But your first comment is right, also, karajorma, marriage is death do you part. It is a verbal contract. Unofrtunatly, no one looks at it the way
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Offline karajorma

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Well the idea of this thread is disuss beliefs not whether they are correct or not.  I'm an atheist personally but I don't see any harm in knowing what other people believe. I'll leave the debate about whether those beliefs are correct or not to another thread. :)

I'm trying to put into words the problem I have with heaven the way Steak has discribed it. My big problem is this. If heaven is supposedly a place where the fact you have several wives doesn't matter then it seems to me that any familial bond is similarly worthless.

Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ
Maybe I shouldn't have added "You'll end up in hell?!". But my main point was, "What if you're wrong?" Obviously if I'm wrong, depending on what aldo believes (not sure what it is), but if it's atheism, I'm going nowhere fast. I'm just dead.


You miss out the possibility that you might also be wrong and  the Hindus or sikhs or any other religion. Casting the "What if you're wrong" stone is a dangerous game for anyone with a faith because it just as easily bounces back onto them. Remember that if the Jehovah's Witnesses are right you're going to Hell in the handbasket next to Aldo's :D
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 08:51:22 am by 340 »
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Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by HotSnoJ
But what if you're wrong? You'll end up in hell?!


What if you're wrong and should be muslim, or sikh, or hindu, or buddhist - etc?  There are more religions than christianity.

Personally, I've hedged my bets - I just try to live the best life I can, and morally that's not particularly different from what most holy books would say.  

The only difference is that I'm not an active worshipper - and I  wouldn't worship any God who valued praise of Himself so highly as to judge a persons sole (or souls'?) worth by it.

EDIT; Secondly, whether someone goes to Hell or not, is not something anyone can judge.  Basically it's God's judgement, yeah?  And all we have are books- written by the hands of men, and thousands of years old - as an indication of the conditions for that judgement.

Quote
Originally posted by Setekh

Now, aldo. I do see validity in a lot of what you say, particularly the "making no impact" bit, but I'm going to sleep soon. ;) However, I'll put this to you: is 'having an impact' the purpose of life, do you think? (Completely rhetorical. You can say yes if you like, I just know a lot of people who assume this without thinking, which bugs me.)

Secondly, how do children, many of whom we could arguably say have no real conception of what genuine sorrow is, have a concept of happiness? And additionally, do you suppose that you have to be simultaneously experiencing sorrow to have a true measure of happiness? Because as far as my understanding goes, heaven does not make you suddenly become asinine and make you lose your comprehension of what sorrow (which people in heaven will no doubt have experienced in this world) is like.


Now, as a semi-aside...i'd never really though too deeply about why reincarnation appeals to me more than other interpretations of the afterlife... one of the things is that, at every moment in your life you make decisions.  

Every now and then, you'll do the wrong thing, or just wonder what would have happened the other way.  And reincarnation is a way of discovering that - even though it'd be subconscious, it's a comforting though to think that not every door is closed.

And secondly, i've always felt that life should be measured by who you are and what you do... and that the best way to live life is to have a positive impact.  i.e. try and be a fair, honest person, not judge people, etc.  

Basically, I neither believe nor disbelieve in God.  I simply think it doesn't, and shouldn't matter  - if I die and that's all there is, then i'm not going to know.  If there is an afterlife, then good.  But I don;t think I need the bible or any other holy book to dictate to me how to live.  

finally, RE: sorrow.  Children understand sorrow or, more accurately, suffering.   Hence, obviously, the crying when a baby is hungry or whanot, or separated from the mother.  It's something that's genetically inbuilt to us, to recognise what is good (happiness) and bad (sorrow) in terms of both physical or emotional events.

Whether you view this inbuilt 'judgement' as something which is a genetic, biological necessity or something more (namely the work of God), is something that is up to your own beliefs.  but I don;t think you could argue that, the more you suffer in your life, the more you appreciate it when you're happy.

EDIt; Incidentally, i'm using God / the Bible as an example because most people (who are religious) here will likely be Christian.  You can insert any diety or holy book here and the point should still be the same one.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2004, 08:58:36 am by 181 »

 

Offline Stunaep

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So, if marriage is not important in the long run, why did the Catholic church forbid divorcing back in the 1600's?
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Offline aldo_14

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Originally posted by Stunaep
So, if marriage is not important in the long run, why did the Catholic church forbid divorcing back in the 1600's?


Cos they're wierd.

Catholic church also helped cause the bubonic plague by telling worshippers to kill cats (as they were creatures of witchcraft) - thus skyrocketing the black rat population in europe.

 

Offline karajorma

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For that matter if marriage is supposed to be the closest you can have on Earth to heaven why is there such reluctance to allow people to divorce if their marriage is the closest thing to hell?
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Offline mikhael

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I gotta say that I'm completely with Venom in this.

I'm an individual. I take comfort in being me. I am not defined by my relationship to God. If going to Heaven is giving up all the things I value--like my wife--in favor of a closer relationship to God, give me hell. To misquote: Better to be me in Hell, than to serve in Heaven.

That said, I will welcome the end of "me" that comes when I die. I'm quite happy not to have an afterlife, to return to the universe that made me. That's really all a person can expect, in my opinion.
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
The reason why I mentioned Jehovah's witnesses was cause they actually believe that they will remain on Earth after it's been upgraded following armageddon. Which does make me wonder what they will do about remarriages.


Actually, although I haven't researched this nor do I think we can know for sure how things will be, indications are that we're not going to reside "up" in heaven, but that Jesus will come "down" and reside with us on a new Earth. But that's really getting OT. :p

Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
The famous explaination of Islamic heaven has a pretty good explaination though too. You get 20 virgins to keep you company. Who needs the wife? ;7


72 virgins... and that's the reason why the suicide bombers always wear extra protection around their nether regions - they want to remain fully functional when they get there. Understandable, in a demented and sick way. :p

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
but I don;t think you could argue that, the more you suffer in your life, the more you appreciate it when you're happy.


Actually, I've experienced this to be the case, I hated high-school. Couldn't stand it - most of my classmates were the pick-on-the-person-who's-different kind, and since I was the American who spoke bad Hebrew, I got picked on often. Couldn't wait to get out of there and get home.

Anyway, then I got recruited into the army. And all of a sudden, I found myself returning home on weekend leave, and valuing SO MUCH just being home. I recall looking back at my school days and thinking, "What the heck was so bad about those days, anyway? No matter how bad the day, I got to return home every afternoon, sleep in my own bed, etc... what was I thinking?" :p
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Offline Flipside

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hehehehe Alas Nostalgia is a great teacher ;)

As for marraiges etc, well, if you feel you need one, feel free to get one. Personally, I have my own, somewhat unusual beliefs about the universe, but it all functions around the fact that you are who you alone choose to be, for better or worse, to coin a phrase. I also believe the only 'true' sin is to not treat other people like they also have a 'you' looking out from behind their eyes.

 

Offline Thorn

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Seeing both viewpoints displayed here... I have to say, I'm all in favor of oblivion...