[Antares]

I don't mind it being mirrored anyplace.

[Unknown Target]

Don't forget to get the new models for SS2! They're uberized!

[Stealth[cro]]

kode - great work there, under 100kb too.

[kode]

Originally posted by Stealth[cro]
kode - great work there, under 100kb too.

heh, it's actually smaller than the word document I did it from

[Woolie Wool]

I agree with some of your points but disagree on some of the others (the "subspace being damaged" reason for the Shivans' xenocidal bloodlust). Starforce and A Terror and a Traitor both have somewhat different reasons for why the Shivans do what they do.

According to A Terror and a Traitor, the Shivans are used by a higher race, whose exact name Shivans never dare to mention, to crush anything considered a potential rival or threat to the higher race before the target becomes a real problem. This "higher race" is so proud, so jealous, and so ruthless that it will not accept anything less than total superiority over all other races technolgically and militariy. They are loath to sacrifice their own "alienpower" and assets to accomplish these ends, so they created the Shivans to do their dirty work. Shivans are a brainwashed species. Throughout their lives, the notion that all other races besides the "higher race" are scum worthy of nothing but total annihalation is pounded into them. Until ETAK was developed, Shivans had no way of communicating with their foes, so they weren't even aware that they were intelligent, thinking beings!

When they were contacted by the Iceni, they were completely confused and bewildered. Surely these space animals could not posess language, they always thought. But there it was, a message from the Terrans. Roughly translated, it said: "NTF ICENI TO UNKNOWN RACE. WE DESIRE CONTACT. TRANSMITTING COORDINATES." followed by the location of the Iceni and a detailed layout of the vessel.

The crew of the Iceni did not anticipate the Shivans boarding the Iceni, so they viciously attacked. The Shivans pressed onwards, taking out the resisting crewmen. Bosch and his command staff put up no resistance, so the Shivans knew that they were the ones who sent the message. Bosch and the command staff took the ETAK device and followed the Shivan boarders out of the Iceni into a waiting transport.

Over several weeks, Shivan engineers, with Bosch's assistance duplicated and refined ETAK, creating ETAK II, which could translate Shivan pulse communication to English and English to Shivan communication nearly as well as the ubiquitous "squawkers" can translate English to Vasudan and Vasudan to English. ETAK II came in both starship transmitter and portable being-to-being translator form.

The Sathanas fleet and its supporting vessels rejected the control of the higher race and allied with Bosch. The new Terran-Shivan Alliance was born, with the goal of uniting all Terrans and Shivans in one political entity and breaking the power of the higher race.

In Starforce, the Zica were once a ruthless galactic superpower that was bent on subjugating the entire galaxy. By the beginning of the 210th century B.C., the Shivans were the only major race left, and were more or less at the technologival level of the Terrans in early FS1 (the Zica were far less advanced than they are in Starforce, which is in the 41st century, but they were more than a match for the Shivans). The Shivans at this time were not excessively aggressive. The Zica saw this as a weakness and immediately struck. The Shivans were quickly overwhelmed by the Zica fleets despite putting on a desperate struggle. Like the FS1 Terrans, they stole and copied many Zica technologies (including shields, Knossos technology, and subspace weapons), and eventually, just as they were on the brink of utter destruction, they began a fierce counteroffensive, steadily pushing the Zica back and driving them through the Stargate (think a subspace node taken to the extreme) that connected the Milky Way to the Andromeda galaxy. To prevent the Zica from ever returning, they collapsed all of the galaxy's Stargates, including the one linking to the Andromeda galaxy (the Andromeda Stargate would be reopened by a joint Terran-Vasudan effort just before the Starforce campaign begins using an advanced form of Knossos technology, allowing the Zica to return with a vengeance).

The Zica were gone, but the price was enormous, far worse than that paid by the Terrans and Vasudans. Over 90% of their entire population, all of their inhabited planets (only their spaceorne colonies remained), and 80% of their spaceborne assets were lost. The Shivans focused what was left of their strength on rebuilding. They adapted their genetic code to a new life among the stars. They colonized what precious few planets (only 13 in the whole galaxy) that could support them and ripped many useless ones apart to fuel the construction of countless new space colonies and starships.

But the greatest change of all was on their outlook. Their experiences left them with a violent xenophobia--they regarded other intelligent life as a danger to their very existence. Their genetic adaptation included making their bodies perfect fighting machines and imbuing their minds with a natural aggression bordering on psychosis. The once-peaceful Iakar became the scourge of the galaxy, the Great Destroyers, the Shivans.

Also, the lack of ground troops in the siege of Vasuda does not support the fact that they don't need planets. Perhaps they might not have considered the planet suitable for Shivan habitation. If that is the case, sterilizing the planet might be acceptable to them. It's much easier to strip-mine a deserted planet than a planet with four billion furious Vasudans living on it. Perhaps they didn't need that particular planet because they already had plenty of useful planets and resources in their own space and simply wanted to punish the Vasudans. In either case, rendering the planet virtually sterile would be a desirable outcome.

Orbital bombardment would be the best means of carrying out such an attack and ground troops would definitely be the worst (well maybe it would be better than low-altitude aerial bombardment with pillowcases, but that's just silly). The Lucifer's weaponry is much more destructive than any number of ground troops. In fact, ground troops would just get in the way if they were used in the Vasuda attack. Ground troops are good at capturing and holding but terrible at raw destruction.

[Xelion]

e. The idea of energy-based life-forms is stupid, and you have no proof that the Shivans come from subspace.

Is it? Energy beings have been a staple of science fiction for years, and the idea of a soul--a form of life lacking any physical body--is important to many religions worldwide. Legends of spirits and ghosts are as popular as they've ever been, yet their subjects are seldom encumbered by physical matter.

The Shivans' subspace origins are indeed uncertain, but it is an explanation that fits the facts at hand: the Shivans' total disinterest in planets or technology, the skill with which they manipulate subspace energy, and their bodies' adaptation for zero-gravity environments.

The idea that Shivans are energy-based life forms is coherent with the FS Canon; the cutscene with the Shivans and what other references are made, fully back this idea almost 100%. If someone indeed thinks this is stupid perhaps they should play Freespace1/2 more often.

3. To the GTVA in Gamma Draconis, following Bosch's activation of the first Knossos portal... a device that literally warps and twists the subspace fabric in order to form new jump nodes.

Highly unlikely! They would have destroyed all the Knossos Portals if they caused damaged or altered subspace in any way (later you say why they haven't destroyed the device, a race who are quite familiar with the physics of subspace should know how to alter and repair and if necessary remove devices related to it), it would have become an even bigger threat then the Terrans or Vasudans. Knossos Portals merely stabilise an unstable node, in retrospect a Knossos can stabilise highly unstable nodes. I would have to say it’s impossible to destroy a node.

"Great Preservers"

That’s not a reference it’s a poetic interpretation from a military stand point of view!

The Lucifer-class vessel destroyed at the close of the Great War was the only known craft of its type to exist in the entire Shivan armada. After 32 years, the design may now be obsolete, or the superdestroyers themselves might only be manufactured in minimal numbers. We have no way of confirming either hypothesis.

They could have been created or grown, manufactured has such a synthetic meaning. . I think the Lucifer-class vessels still exist. They are only on ‘Scouting Parties’.

The activation of the Knossos involved subspace disruption on a larger scale, and would have merited the Shivans' more immediate attention.

I doubt it especially when they were able to establish so many portals in their empire

For these reasons, the Shivans must have some base of operations from which their forces originate. More on this later.

Agreed

The player and various other vessels can fire on the Knossos in-game with no visible effect. We know for a fact that the portal is a sturdy structure, simply because the detonation of the first Meson bomb--despite wiping out all small craft within some three kilometers--caused no apparent damage. Whether or not the Knossos could withstand assault by a Sathanas is another question entirely, but since the largest Shivan vessels to enter Gamma Draconis prior to the destruction of the portal were of cruiser-class, then the point becomes moot. We can assume that the Shivans could probably destroy the portals by detonating nearby stars, but would they really go to all that trouble when it would be easier to eliminate traffic through the node?

Wouldn’t the destruction of a star have influence on the Subspace Node System?

The narrator explains, in simple terms, that the Shivans exterminate older, advanced races to ensure the survival of younger, undeveloped ones. The predecessors to the Ancients, whoever they were, were destroyed by the Shivans so that the Ancients might thrive; the Ancients, in turn, were themselves destroyed so that humanity, and presumably Vasudans (although there is evidence that the Vasudans themselves may in fact be descendants of the scattered Ancient population) could survive. As the narrator mentions, humanity--having assumed its own mantle as conqueror of the cosmos, rampantly colonizing, exploring, and waging war upon the Vasudans--had nearly reached the time of its own destruction.

I don’t believe the Shivans exist to Keep the peace..

 

”Admiral Petratch”, Ending 1
To the officers and crew of the GTD Aquitaine. We have halted the Shivan advance. The battle of Capella is over. We sealed off the system and our people are safe, maybe forever. No one can fathom how or why the Shivans destroyed the Capella star. Though we know our enemy better now than we did 32 years ago, their motives remain a mystery. Perhaps they are exiles like we are, nomads wandering the universe, searching for a way back home. The explosion of a star might be a bridge between this universe and their own. As the old poet once said "
There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." From our odyssey into Hell we have returned with a gift. The Ancient technology to build a portal between Delta Serpentis and Sol. To restore the link to our blue planet. To return home after all these years.
This is Admiral Petrach, signing off.

I tend to think that V has some how pointed us towards a cliff hanger… (its highlighted).

Bosch suspects that the cycle of destruction perpetuated by the Shivans has continued for a very long time--longer, perhaps, than any of us can estimate.

Good Point

At the end of the First Great War, the Shivans failed to complete their objective of xenocide--quite possibly the first time they had ever failed to accomplish their monstrous task. Unlike the Ancients before them, the Terrans and Vasudans were able to heed the age-old cautions they discovered, able to learn from them, able to adapt them for their races' own purposes.

The Ancients could have been destroyed by the second invasion not the scouting party, nothing in the texts suggest otherwise, only Altair which could have been isolated from the Empire after attacks in other systems, they may have assumed the entire race was destroyed…

(this theory is strengthened, albeit not much, by the fact that Capella turns green in hue. Yellow star + blue subspace node = green  ).

Very interesting

Another thing, the Fs1 monologues can be interpreted so differently that there not good use for reference (personal thoughts on fs1 cutscenes). What they say is usually from a stand point, and too poetic. It seems more like a dialogue to decode!

Some of the information goes into highly speculative territory. Some nice ties in the information there, especially Theoretical Subspace Physics. There are some very good notes and ideas in the manifesto. Great Work and Dedication

[Akalabeth Angel]

An On-Topic Reply (imagine that)"

    I'm just going to comment on a few select blocks of text in the order which they appeared:

The Shivans appear to lack the expertise needed to shield a capital-class vessel, with one notable exception: the heavily-armed superdestroyer Lucifer was protected by an impenetrable energy shield, likely energized by the ship's five reactors. Allied craft were never able to penetrate the shield directly, and were forced to circumvent the mechanism entirely by ambushing the Lucifer during subspace transit, a time during which its shields would not function.

The Lucifer-class vessel destroyed at the close of the Great War was the only known craft of its type to exist in the entire Shivan armada. After 32 years, the design may now be obsolete, or the superdestroyers themselves might only be manufactured in minimal numbers. We have no way of confirming either hypothesis.

      The Lucifer Super Destroyer (or something like it) has been inservice for thousands of years, we know this because the Ancients fought against a shielded warship and lost. I think its unreasonable to assume that

1. the Lucifer is a unique vessel
2. that the Lucifer was the same ship to fight the ancients

     Just because there aren't any Lucifers in FS2 doesn't mean they're aren't more around.

d. Is it possible that the Shivans captured Bosch in order to interrogate him?

Unlikely. The Shivans have never previously been interested in talking to either Terrans or Vasudans, and have never taken prisoners (with the exception of Bosch and his command crew). We are granted very few glimpses of Shivan/Terran personal interaction: once in the "Hall Fight" cutscene, and again with the apperance of the Lucifer at Tombaugh Station (described in the Freespace Reference Bible). We may or may not wish to include the boarding of the Iceni as a third example. In each case, contact has been extremely violent, with no intent to discuss any sort of terms, or indeed, to ask questions of any sort.

     I think this statement is somewhat contradictory. You say that the Shivans have never been interested in taking prisoners and yet at the same time say that Shivans won't interrogate (ie talk to) Bosch. Well if they're not going to talk to him, what the heck was the point of taking him alive?? From the fact that Bosch was taken we can assume three things:

1. There is no prior evidence of Shivans boarding Terran or Vasudan vessels; the fact that they've never used ground troops suggests that such an occurance is extraordinary.
2. The shivans knew who Bosch was ; in a ship with thousands of crew members, only Bosch and his officers were not killed.
3. The fact he's alive, among the Shivans is important. Volition wouldn't end the first of two major storylines by saying "hey, shivans took bosch but they're just going to poke him it has not real consequences"

We know that subspace is relatively "fickle". The FS database tells us that most nodes open and close within milliseconds. We also know that larger nodes can be collapsed by way of large explosions, such as the sealing-off of the Sol-Delta Serpentis node by the destruction of the Lucifer, or the collapse of all nodes leading off Capella by Orion-class destroyers loaded with Meson warheads ("Clash of the Titans II"). Therefore, I feel it is not unreasonable to speculate that subspace damage is also incurred, on some level, by the use of subspace travel. It is entirely possible that traffic through subspace corridors will accelerate node collapse more quickly than the natural passage of time.

       If the average subspace node lasts milliseconds, the lack of permanent subspace nodes would be the norm. Therefore, the collapse of subspace nodes by explosions or travel would also be moving things towards a more normal state of affairs.

       Therefore, I'm unconvinced that travel through a subspace node has any effect whatsoever. Though certainly, the release of a massive amount of energy within a node will collapse it.

The Shivans do not "use" Knossos portals, per se. The portals exist in Shivan-controlled areas, but so far as we know, the Shivans do not know for certain how to activate them, or precisely what they are used for. It was Admiral Bosch who drew the Shivans' ire with his activation of the first Knossos;

     This is an unfounded assumption. We do not know if the Knossos caused any emotional reaction whatsoever (negative or otherwise). What we do know, is that either from the Knossos' activation or from the appearance of the Trinity within the nebula, the Shivans began utilising the node and entering Gamma Draconis.

At the time of the SOC mission, only nine juggernauts had jumped into the unidentified binary system. Days later, when the armada gathered around Capella, that number had increased ninefold. This, of course, could be mere coincidence, but it could also be an indication that the objects destroyed by the SOC had more value than mere radio relay stations.

This is also a false assumption, in loop2-2 Snipes states: Sathanas number six now in system. At this rate, we'll have a hundred Juggernauts bearing down on Capella in no time. Before destruction of the devices, the number of juggernauts moving in was already at the final levels. If anything, the number of Juggernauts DECREASED with the destruction of the devices because only 85 showed up instead of 100+. It's also safe to assume that since Snipes says it, Voltion means it. As I would think most in-game dialogue (cutscene or otherwise) has purpose behind it rather than just "this'll sound cool"

If true, it would mean that the SOC destroyed something far more vital than simple communications equipment. It would mean they destroyed installations absolutely vital to the Shivans' continued existence, and quite possibly killing an untold number of them by suddenly and abruptly severing their life support.

Furthermore, to refute the above, if the destruction of the devices killed untold numbers of Shivans, the assault would have been delayed would it not have?

The second, simpler reason is the simple fact that unlike the Shivans, Terran and Vasudan fleets actually make progress. So far as anyone knows, the Shivan species has remained essentially the same--if not stagnant--for the last eight thousand years, using the same kind of weaponry (as per the discoveries of the Vasudan scientists in Altair), and presumably, the same kinds of spacecraft.

     This is completely false. A Lilith has a shivan turret in FS1, a LRed in FS2, isn't that progress?

The massing of the juggernaut fleet to destroy Capella must have one of two purposes: either as an offensive or defensive action.

     Unfounded. Not everything the Shivans do must be offensive or defensive, there are more reasons than that. Take the Beleth, the Demon which was supporting the Sathanas, it didn't engage the Sobek but continued towards the node? Why? It had other things to do. Maybe the Shivans just had more important things to do than killing of the T/Vs just then.

We know that subspace is inherently unstable, both due to the brief formation/collapse of most nodes, and due to the fact that jump portals--once opened via jump drive--do not remain open for long, but quickly seal up after the vessel in question has entered the subspace corridor. If the Shivans are, in essence, living subspace energy, then their first explorers would have met a grotesque end, the very energy composing their beings dissipating and drifting off into the void.

The idea that Shivans are energy-based life forms is coherent with the FS Canon; the cutscene with the Shivans and what other references are made, fully back this idea almost 100%. If someone indeed thinks this is stupid perhaps they should play Freespace1/2 more often.

(above is from two posts)

If shivans are subspace beings, two questions need answering:
1. How does an energy being manipulate metal to make starships and space suits?
2. Why does an energy being need a space suit at all? They don't use ground troops? Why not simply have a solid spaceship and live as a part of the ship? Have a Sathanas as your space suit, that'll be more protective than some 2m tall thing. Energy beings don't need suits, and they don't need hallways to move around.
3. By quoting the text about the shivan weapon in Hall Fight, why is it assumed that the harnessing of energy to fire must mean it is an energy being? Do not lifeforms such as humans have energy as well? That's the entire basis of the Matrix triology. Perhaps the Shivans are simply advanced enough to harness their body energy.

1. "In the Lion's Den" is considered by many--including myself--to be the most compelling and exciting of all the Freespace missions. It provides a unique perspective from the cockpit of the Shivan Mara, an exhilirating intro ("DIVE, DIVE, DIVE!"), and witty commentary throughout by Snipes. It also gives the player the first real glance at Shivan "space", unobscured by thick nebular clouds. Wouldn't you think it somewhat anti-climactic, therefore, for the main targets in this mission to be little more than glorified satellite dishes?

2. Don't you think the Comm Nodes make unusually big bangs upon their destruction, if they are really simple communications equipment? The Alliance has studied Shivan comm systems before, but these give off "unusual" sensor readings before they go kablooey. Why?

    I don't buy it. I don't buy the fact the a Comm Node, a defensive object in the middle of nowhere, is the lifeblood of Shivans in far off systems. I also don't agree with basing such importance on optional missions. Remember, that a player could play the campaign + skip these missions with the story still making sense. It makes sense in the Bosch case.

   But since we're on the subject, here's my own hypothesis in short form:

A - the Shivans are a hive mind as suggested. They have a queen and a master hive, a Cyotus as you said.
B - Near the end of FS2, the Shivans were amassing a fleet to go and wipe out the Terrans. Even assuming they suspected a Colossus fleet, there's simply no reason for the Shivans to retreat by loosing barely more than 1 percent of their forces.
C - the Comm Nodes rather, are simply that: Communication Nodes. They have unusually high energies because they don't do system to system communication, but rather they connect the Shivan armada to main hive. By destroying the Comm Nodes, you destroy the link and the Shivan fleet is leaderless.
D - In the same way that Borg chick Seven of Nine yearned to return to the collective, so do the Shivans wish to return home to regain their link. The destruction of Capella was a return, not a retreat, to the Shivan home base, whether it be an alternate dimension or otherwise.
E - so, while the end seems hopeless the player saves the universe once again. By destroying a few comm nodes, he disrupts the communications and instead of the juggernauts annihilating all life they instead return home for some new orders.
F - By the same assumption, as a scouting force, the Lucifer fleet is expected to operate on its own. Therefore the Lucifer was the leader. Since there are no Lucifers in FS2, there are no leaders except at home base.

   There you go

[Xelion]

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
If shivans are subspace beings, two questions need answering:
1. How does an energy being manipulate metal to make starships and space suits?

That is something that will be explained once the human race encounters one. Meanwhile ones imagination may be endless and vast but ideas and answers come slowly. So if I come up with an answer or some sort of explanation or theory I'll post it.

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
2. Why does an energy being need a space suit at all? They don't use ground troops? Why not simply have a solid spaceship and live as a part of the ship? Have a Sathanas as your space suit, that'll be more protective than some 2m tall thing. Energy beings don't need suits, and they don't need hallways to move around.

Lets just say for the moment that it is an energy being and living  outside of subspace without some sort of containment suit would kill them. To live part of the ship is a possibility, for we know the ship may be partially organic. We haven't seen them use groud troops but it is unlikely...

Maybe they need suits to harness the energy for weapons and other processors. They may indeed be like the Vorlons, all we saw so far of the Shivans are them in suits when we boarded a vessel, nothing more. They could have been in some sort of defense suit when the Terrans came aboard.

Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
3. By quoting the text about the shivan weapon in Hall Fight, why is it assumed that the harnessing of energy to fire must mean it is an energy being? Do not lifeforms such as humans have energy as well? That's the entire basis of the Matrix triology. Perhaps the Shivans are simply advanced enough to harness their body energy.

Well they are advanced and I would have to say related to subspace in some form or another. Though would it not make more sense that the beings are energy because they are 'born out of the flux of subspace'

[Akalabeth Angel]

The idea that Shivans are energy-based life forms is coherent with the FS Canon; the cutscene with the Shivans and what other references are made, fully back this idea almost 100%. If someone indeed thinks this is stupid perhaps they should play Freespace1/2 more often.

    I'm curious, exactly what in the cutscenes and/or the Reference Bible give the impression that the Shivans are an energy-based lifeform? I just rewatch and reread the FS1 material and found nothing which suggested that whatsoever. If anything, Hallfight suggests that the Shivans have bodies. When one of the Shivans die there is no hint of energy being released, it simply explodes more like a robot than anything else. The firing of the plasma beam at the soldier has the same effect that the Lucifer is supposed to have, and that FS2 beam weapons have. It simply draws particles into itself before firing. Is a GTD Hecate an energy being also? Of course not, so why would that effect suggest that they are?

Lets just say for the moment that it is an energy being and living outside of subspace without some sort of containment suit would kill them. To live part of the ship is a possibility, for we know the ship may be partially organic. We haven't seen them use groud troops but it is unlikely...

Maybe they need suits to harness the energy for weapons and other processors. They may indeed be like the Vorlons, all we saw so far of the Shivans are them in suits when we boarded a vessel, nothing more. They could have been in some sort of defense suit when the Terrans came aboard.

   How do we know that the ship may be partially organic? What in FS canon even remotely suggests this? Derelict? Derelict isn't cannon, and the effects of the Nyarlathotep de-stablizing the node by remaining within it should not be seen as canon either. I think a lot of people have consciously or subconsciously taken Derelict to have some elements of canon, especially in their campaigns, when in fact everything in the campaign is 3rd party and compared to FS, pure bulls***. Which of course isn't to say its not a great campaign, but any story which is not supported by FS1+2 should not be regarded as anything but 3rd party conjecture.

   Once again, I say, what does an energy being need with a space suit? Don't compare Shivans to Vorlons. For one thing, Vorlons don't need space suits, they use space suits to cover up their angelic appearance which they used to manipulate the younger races. And they're actually called "Encounter Suits" used to encounter other races.

   But as for the Shivans, if they are in fact energy beings and they do need some sort of suit then why not simply use a space ship as your suit? There is absolutely no reason why an energy being simply wouldn't reside inside their own ships. The use of hallways, and other such structures is a complete waste of space. An energy being would only use such bodies as defensive robots, not used to defend their vessels but to board enemy vessels. However, since [V] has stated that the beings seen are Shivans, not robots, then therefore they're not energy beings.

   Look at it this way, lets say your computer tower is a Shivan vessel, and within that tower are a bunch of energy-based shivans. As it stands, the shivans can nearly instaneously move from one part of the tower to another through the electronic gizmos one finds in a computer. If the shivans need some sort of containment, let's say they live in the hardrive. That's their containment source. What you and the manfiest guy are proposing, is that instead of your average computer tower, the shivans have built little rooms and tunnels within it. And instead of living the hard drive, there's a bunch of little robots with little hard drives to hold individual shivans that move up and down these hallways to do whatever task they need to do.
 
   Now my question is, as an energy being would the shivans be completely stupid? No, they wouldn't. So they wouldn't build tunnels and little bodies to hold themselves in. Living in a self-contained body poses two problems:

A - it imposes SEVERE limitations on the energy beings ability to move. How long does it take you to get from say New York to London? Even by the fastest plane in the world, an SR-71 Blackbird? A long time. How long does it take your voice to travel to London when you're talking to some dude on the telephone? A few seconds at most? So why in the world would a Shivan purposely place the limitations of a physical body upon themselves when their pure energy form is so much more free. If one says "in order to survive", cannot a shivan survive in a much more larger construct? Instead of using a body to survive in, why not survive in the encompasing shell of a cities' electronic grid for example. Then a Shivan could move from point A to B in the blink of an eye.
B - It is a completely, and utterly inefficient waste of space. How much space on a warship is taken up by crew quarters, hallways, tunnels, rooms and whatever? A lot. If the Shivans are some of the most efficient killers in known space, why wouldn't they build efficient starships? And again, use a containment system encompassed by the whole ship, not some little body.

Well they are advanced and I would have to say related to subspace in some form or another. Though would it not make more sense that the beings are energy because they are 'born out of the flux of subspace'

    Freespace canon, in my opinion points to one thing. The Shivans are more intimate and knowledgable of subspace, nothing more. I don't see where there's any evidence of energy-based life forms whatsoever.

    As for subspace itself, remember that it was originally called freespace, not subspace. As for the manifesto author's idea that the name subspace means it supports normal space, I don't think there's evidence for that either. In the reference bible, it states that scientists don't really know much about subspace other than how to travel through it. Therefore, it is logical to assume that the name a group of scientists give to something they know nothing about, just happens to be the correct name??? I don't think it is. Furthermore, the reasoning that because Shivans blockade + contol nodes (something only evidenced by the ref bible, not the game btw) says that they're protecting subspace is irrational also. I think its more akin to the Shivans know more routes of travel, so they block the obvious ones and use the less-obvious ones to dominate their opponent strategically.

   Also, to Xel, where do you get this 'born out of the flux of subspace' quote from??

   Anyway, I don't know why the Shivans are "the symptom of a bigger problem", but I don't think its the collapse of the universe through damage to subspace.

[ChronoReverse]

"Born out of the flux of subspace" is a Bosch quote IIRC.  Which in itself doesn't imply that it's correct necessarily.

[Antares]

Went through and added a few minor details.  Made numerous style changes (italics) and corrected typos.

[Woolie Wool]

Lets just say for the moment that it is an energy being and living  outside of subspace without some sort of containment suit would kill them. To live part of the ship is a possibility, for we know the ship may be partially organic. We haven't seen them use groud troops but it is unlikely...

1. Subspace conditions seem little different from realspace, judging from the fact that nothing happens to crewed starships traveling through them.
2. The ships are clearly artificial in nature, being composed of metals and some kind of red crystalline material. Just LOOK AT THEM. Besides, organic materials would fare poorly against the brutal radiation, debris, and other hazards of outer space. Crews in space need radiation shielding to survive, and organic materials make for TERRIBLE radiation shielding, being composed of complex molecules and light elements. The radiation would quickly destroy the organic hull.

[quote[Maybe they need suits to harness the energy for weapons and other processors. They may indeed be like the Vorlons, all we saw so far of the Shivans are them in suits when we boarded a vessel, nothing more. They could have been in some sort of defense suit when the Terrans came aboard.[/quote]
I believe that those "suits" are actually their bodies, which are altered to accept the plasma cannons and energy blade devices. The implants would be connected to the Shivan's equivalent of a nervous system so it can be controlled like a part of the creature's body, but it would have an independent power source.

Well they are advanced and I would have to say related to subspace in some form or another. Though would it not make more sense that the beings are energy because they are 'born out of the flux of subspace'

Please. Semantics are not good evidence, especially from someone like Bosch, who knows nothing for certain about the Shivans' origins.

One more thing: Volition explicitly said those things seen in Hallfight were the Shivans' actual bodies.

[Xelion]

Akalabeth Angel
How do we know that the ship may be partially organic?

I remember in FS2 (Playing through the game right now) someone mentioned that the red glowing parts maybe somewhat alive or orangic something similar to that, maybe I remember it a different way...

@ Akalabeth Angel, seeing that V can vouch for the Shivans... lets ignore it for just one second and say they were energy, if they were not wearing a suit of some kind how would they evacuate a ship thats about to explode or perhaps jump onto one as seen from the clip on the fs disc. If they went outside there own vessel without a suit they would die would they not?

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
One more thing: Volition explicitly said those things seen in Hallfight were the Shivans' actual bodies.

Ok, something I did not know.

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Semantics are not good evidence, especially from someone like Bosch, who knows nothing for certain about the Shivans' origins.

Yeh I know, I just thought I'd use it

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
organic materials would fare poorly against the brutal radiation, debris, and other hazards of outer space. Crews in space need radiation shielding to survive, and organic materials make for TERRIBLE radiation shielding, being composed of complex molecules and light elements. The radiation would quickly destroy the organic hull.

Not necessarily, organic materials could be great against radiation... what your saying is merely speculation, of course so am I.

Anyways I think this cleary ends my participation in this thread, it requires too much thinking right now... I actually like the way the Shivans are, someone on this forum described it quite well once and I think thats the way I'll leave it.

[Akalabeth Angel]

lets ignore it for just one second and say they were energy, if they were not wearing a suit of some kind how would they evacuate a ship thats about to explode or perhaps jump onto one as seen from the clip on the fs disc. If they went outside there own vessel without a suit they would die would they not?

    Perhaps. It depends on what sort of being they are. Does anyone believe that the glowing claws and plasma cannon are born naturally with the creature? I'd doubt that premise. Either the Shivans are in a suit, or they have enhanced themselves through technology to function within zero gravity and in the vacuum of space (for limited periods of time).

   Regardless of whether those are shivans true bodies, or enhanced bodies, or shivans in combat armor, the fact remains that there's no reason an energy being would restrict themselves to a body like that.

   If an energy being was within a ship without hallways + rooms but rather just confined within the ship itself, and the ship started to explode then the energy beings (assuming they needed the ship to surive) would probably be screwed. Else, they could all squeeze into an escape battery and fly off somewhere else as well.

   As an aside, one thing that I always wondered about is how such a big creature like a Shivan can fit into their little thin + narrow fighter planes. Are they crewed by Shivans? Or are they autonomous drones of some variety?

[Woolie Wool]

Those ships are bigger than you think--even the Dragon is the size of a house (16m long, 6m wide, 3-5m high) and the cockpit is towards the aft part of the ship, which is taller than the front. A Shivan in normal posture is around 3m wide, 3m long, and 2m tall, and is much smaller if you fold up the legs and arms.

[ryuune75]

I just managed to read all of this document, and i must say it's a really great work.

Hovewer, there are some points i want to discuss:

- The assumption that the shivans are pure energy beings. While there is no way to say that this assumpton is wrong, i also don't see any evidence that this could be true too. All we see are physical shivans, who use physical ships, who employ weapons to attack other physical things. Novere i see hits that the body of a shivan is merely a host for the ture shivan, and also Volition clearly stated that the shivans we see is their real body.
- The assumption that subspace is unstable and that contains no matter at all. I don't think in any case is mentioned that subspace is an unstable dimension, what is said is that the portals between realspace and subspace are volatile and unstable. If that assumpiton implies that subspace is unstable it can also implies that realspace is unstable too, and we know that is simply not true. Also how can we know that subspace doesnt' contain matter at all? All we see of subspace are narrow tunnels between two location of realspace, we never manage to really explore subspace freely, and as matter in realspace is scattered at enormous distance and is very rare compared to the total volume, tha same could be for subspace. I mean, if you can transport to a random place in realspace there are virtually no chance that you can come near a star or planet, so you'll wrongly assume that realspace is empty. Of course if there is matter in subspace it will probably be a very different and esotic kind of matter, and not the one we are used to.
- The assumption of shivans not being skilled with material construction because they are energy being. This is clearly wrong, because it is true that their fighters aren't armoured, but this is becauase they had nearly impenetrable sields to protect them (that's it, until GTVA developed adeguate weapons) so there was no need to make them sturdy. This is proved by the fact that their un-shielded battleship are as sturdy and armored as the GTVA equivalents, if not more. If the shivans were unable to create powerful armors how can their battleships be so strong, able to endure the deadly beam wepons of the GTVA with ease? Are they unable to create heavy armor for fighters only?
- The shivans fleeing from a probable colossus fleet. This is very very unlikely, and it's also assuming that the shivans are pretty stupid, which we know is not true. How can they order a massive retreat of a fleet, with many self caused losses,  that clearly is superior in every aspects to that of the GTVA one, only because they lost a Sathanas? Also we all know that normally a Colossus can't beat a Sathanas in one-to one, and only managed to win thanks to alpha one that disabled the Juggernaut main armaments, and they must know that. I simply can't believe that the shivan can be scared that easily, i mean, ok they found GTVA had a ship comparable to their (not quite, but we assume so), what do they do? Attack in full force? Panic and retreat trying to save their asses? I firmly believe it's the first one... also if shivans are hive type creatures the single individuals will not be afraid of dead and will not panic and flee except when their defeat is certain. Finally, i think the shivans are smart enought to understand the colossus is one of a kind ship, or at least a very rare ship (while they have a lot of juggernauts).
- The assumption that the comm devices are more than just that, communicantion devices, is pure speculation and have no basis at all. Also i dont believe the shivans require anything to live in realspace more than their own bodies, else they will need to fill the systems they invade with their life-support device first, and this clearly doens't appens anywere.

[mrfun]

Overall, fantastic work.  Some flaws sure, but some thoughts I want to raise.

I LIKE this explanation.  It rings true to evidence (at least a reasonable interpretation of it) and is unique.  As a Sci-fi fan, this is some good stuff here, especially regarding the nature and purpose of the Shivans.  The "all-powerful alien race comes through a portal to kick your mojo" has been so overused it is pathetic.  This fleshes out the shivans, adds details and intrigue to make them their own interesting plot along the lines of figuring out where the vorlons came from in B5.

If we are going to be writing the future of the freepsace universe, why go with old crap?  I reject the idea that the shivans are servants of yet a more powerful race on this idea alone- it's a rotten story.  This is good- lets use it!



Nature of subspace (my theory):
A non-localized energetic environment.  Within subspace there is no relativity, meaning no distance, no space.  To compare to our universe, it would be as if every point in subspace simultaneously also existed at every other point.  (similar to the statrek concept of warp 10 extended to the entire dimension)

This explains why shivans are so easily perturbed by subspace distrubance- no matter where or on what scale the disturbance occured in realspace, it would be perceptible to the shivans in subspace.  By this theory, subspace is more like a core around which the real universe is founded rather that a plane underneath it.  Since no space exists in subspace it is as if all of subspace consists of 1 point, and if a bridge was made from subspace to realspace it could be made to any point in realspace suitable to form the conenction (aka, some sort of mega-node, Capella star hint hint).

This means subspace corridors are not channells through subspace, but instead going accross it.  A localized phenomenon (eg, a starship) could not exist in non-local space.  However, it might be possible for an interaction to reach from on point in realspace, accross subspace, to a second point in realspace- a subspace corridor.

Given the above, the nature of the shivans:
If subspace is a non-local envorinment, it would not foster any sort of individuation among lifeforms that develop there.  Yet we see individual shivans.  In their natural state, shivans are most likely one single entity- a unity of thought and conscioussness in the form of energy.  The local nature of our space prevents this unity from existing (the fact of distance between two points prevents and sort of universal linkage within the boundaries of realspace).  So, to interact in our space, they must therefore create localized pockets of conscioussness- individual shivans.

They then create bodies and ships to contain this awareness to prevent it from dissipating.  This is relatively simple- the shivans have access to nearly limitless energy.  Mass and energy are more or less interchangeable (this is essentially what E=mc2 states), so the convert their energy into mass.  Likely this process is not feasible on a massive scale- a too large dispalacement of energy/mass would result in distortion of space.  Also, this must occur through a connection between subspace and realspace, limiting the amount of energy transfered without causing a major subspace disruption, which the shivans desperately want to avoid.  As a side note, energy from subspace would be formless, and there would need to be some way to organize into into structures here in realspace.  This supports the concept of some sort of central installation, and explains their complete lack of interest in planets and resouces.

There is no evidence for any of this, and likely not what Volition had in mind, but there are no outright conflicts either.  And who cares what voltion planned, Freespace is ours now, lets create some fantastic background info to go with it.

Summary of major points:
Subspace is really wierd- so much so that human existence in subspace is impossible and only superficially interactions with it are possible.

The shivans evolved in and may even be part of subspace. While in realspace they would likely be in some way completely dependent on their connection to subspace for survival.

The shivans are a a single entity within subspace, whose consciossness is distorted and fragmented when they enter realspace, becoming the shivans we know and love to blow up.

The shivans have limitless rescources, but limited ability to manifest those resources in realspace.

To me these points suggest a general plot for the resolution of the Great War scenario:

Possibility 1:  The GTVA, through much trial and no doubt many battles (which we will get to fly in, hehehe) eventually discovers the true nature of the shivans and subspace, and creates or discovers technology to live in harmony with subspace.

Possibility 2: The GTVA defeat the shivans by driving them off, contunally expands, and indirectly causes the destruction of the shivans by perpetuating too much subspace damage (this damage need not nessecarily be massive enough to destroy the whole universe, just the shivans that live in subspace)

There may be more, but most appear to involve the death of the GTVA.  The Alliance is one of my favorite aspects of freespace as a whole, the idea that countless individual civilizations fell and the Alliance stood is an appealing aspect of the story.

There are countless conflicts and stories to be written before either one of these endings- the existance of an ending is only to give direction to the journey after all, and it's the story that takes us there and the missions we'll fly in the process that are what we're truly after.

[Polpolion]

 
holy sh-crap-it

[Mefustae]

*Points upward* Biggest. Bump. Evar!

[Cobra]

*reads it all* jesus christ, that's a lot of text. and well written, as well. excellent work, antares. this should be in our wiki.

i always thought that the Shivan CommNodes were like the pieces to the Shivan hive mind, if that's how their minds operate.