[Flipside]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=Church___State_Issues

I didn't say which fundementalists

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Good man

[Rictor]

You would think that I would care, but not really. Say the Pledge if you want to, don't if you don't. That seems like a pretty common sense approach to me.

Here in Canada we've got "Prayer Rooms" in most Universities and Colleges. Most Highschools I thik have them too; mine did. They're non denominational, so that Muslims can pray right beside Christians and its a very tolerant environment. As long as its a positive thing, as it is meant to be, I don't see why people who want to should not be allowed to pray and worship in school.

[Flipside]

I think you'll find it's more about who they are praying to and worshipping. If someone does not believe that they are 'under God', why should they have to proclaim that they are?

[magatsu1]

what about when courts tell people to swear to tell the truth with one hand on the bible? If I were religious and non-christian that would piss me right off.

[Flipside]

Well, I don't know how it works in America, but in the UK, you can swear on any holy book, or even make an atheists oath on your honour.

[Rictor]

Make the Pledge non-obligatory. Problem solved. If I were in the US, I would have more of a problem with the rest of the Pledge than with "Under God."

[Rictor]

I pledge allegiance to the underworld
One nation under dog
There of which I stand alone
A face in the crowd
Unsung, against the mold
Without a doubt
Singled out
The only way I know

    Green Day - Minority  

[karajorma]

Bah. As an atheist I think their are more important things to worry about. If you're a real atheist then pledging to God is actually a good thing to do. It gives you a get out of pledge free card if you ever need one (I don't believe in God therefore a pledge to him means as much to me as one to Father Christmas)

[Exarch]

I just don't get the whole idea of a pledge of allegience in the first place. If you're loyal to your country and confident in that fact, you really don't have to remind yourself and others all the time. But if, on the other hand, you're not loyal but want to keep that under cover, guess who's gonna be reciting the pledge the loudest? Yup, the one to whom it means nothing.

Which kinda defeats the whole purpose of having a pledge of allegience in the first place, except for any indoctrination purposes for which I imagine it can be quite effective at a young age. That said, nothing wrong with saying it if you mean it, it just doesn't really serve any purpose.

[Bobboau]

it's totaly inefective at a young age, I remember haveing to recite the damned thing and everyone just thought of it as a waist of time we could be spending eating paste or pokeing the person in front of us.

[an0n]

Legally, any pledge or oath made to 'God' is binding in any court, even if you're an atheist or non-Christian.

It's basically a pseudonym for 'highest power'.

And what else are they going to pledge to/for? The law covers all the physical and financial penalties so the only thing which can be wagered against a pledge/oath is your immortal soul.

[kasperl]

this is going to really **** things up on that side of the pond...


over here we have no religious, and very few political points in schools. hell, when we do discuss the government, the most likely points we'll discuss are how they ****ed up this time. The only time there even is a flag flying is during royal birthdays, and when royals die.

[Lonestar]

Pledge of allegiance to the country is good, but pledging it to God because the country asked you too is not exactly what god intended.

I say it shouldnt exist simply because it forces you to pledge something under someone you dont recognize as existing, therefore that persons pledge is meaningless.

The only way to make it mean something is to make it non-directional when spoken, like not saying under god, or on behalf of anyone, just pledging you love the US and swear on your head.

[Knight Templar]

I sort of realised the other day how much the pledge'.. meaningfulness has degraded since, say, Kindergarten. Of course back then school was about drilling ideas into young minds (not that it's much different now, they just go about it a different way) but now, we only do it Mondays, Wednesdays, and Friday. Thing is, nobody recites the pledge, save for the girl saying it over the intercom.

All that aside, it's got to be a stretch to really be offended by that. I mean, unless you're Kazan, does it really matter if an apparently meaningless oath over the intercom at unholy hours of the morning mentions a god that may or may not exist?

Okay, I don't really know, but it doesn't bother me either way.

[Flipside]

I think the problem is that it is so obvious no-one sees it.
As has been said, it doesn't mention the Christian 'God' or any other Religions 'God' it just mentions 'God'.
I suppose this could only really affect Atheists, but I can just hear certain corners of the church gnawing on the velvet about this one

[Kazan]

actually it's not as trivial as you think it is to be objecting to this.


any exposure to the ideas as something positive and _real_ weapons the barriers of reality that are present.   - basically saying argumentum ad nauseum works with most people, even if it is a fallacy


------------

it should be noted; Rhenquist is a conservative, the entire 1954 SCOTUS was what we'd call a bunch of conservatives

they were all christians

[vyper]

I'm surprised the Americans in here aren't more interested in this. Your founding father's had the wisdom to realise religious policy (or rather the state's loyalty to a particular one) was a major cause of tension in the "old world" and managed to establish they were founding a free democratic nation. Until of course, some nutters came along and said "we must pretend believing in God makes us better than the commies!!!!111" and of course then it all went to ****.

Stand up for what your country really is. Please?

[Flipside]

Strangely enough, this reminds me of the new 'Citizenship' pledge in the UK, the original wording involved swearing alleigance to the Queen, until it was pointed out that most of the people born and bred here didn't have any alleigance to the Queen

[Liberator]

Understand, the word that is causing Mr. Newdow, which BTW judging from the fact that he isn't married to his daughters mother is a Red Diaper Doper Baby, "god" is in the lower case.  That tense of the word is a generic term refering to whatever higher power the reciter pays heed to.  In Mr. Newdow's case probably his dope tree in his backyard.

Also, it was the removal of Christianity from the public mind that has resulted in a country of such low moral and ethical standing as we have now.  

Before
children had respect for their parents and themselves
children weren't drugged to make them easier for lousy teachers to control and indoctrinate
the divorce rate was single digit or low teens

Now
teen pregnancy is at an all time high
one in two marriages fail
the abuse of chemical depressants on spirited children is ruining the next generation