Author Topic: North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion  (Read 4889 times)

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Offline karajorma

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
on idealism: 4 billion years? huh? The Earth, AFAIK, has not existed for that long. Humanity is, in our modern itteration, less than 100,000 years old. And civilization as we know the word is less than 10,000 years old, closer to 5000.


Wrong on almost every count :rolleyes:
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Offline Gloriano

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
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Offline mikhael

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Rictor...

No. I give up. You're wrong, but your idealism blinds you, or I'm wrong and my cynicism blinds me. Either way, there's no point in continuing. Huzzah, national identity means nothing, all men are brothers, you can push your beliefs on me and mine willy nilly and I can't do anything about it! I'm not allowed faith, or belief in anything but what you declare is good and right and just!

If you like, I grant you blanket permission to declare victory for now and in the future, for any debate into which you enter, with anyone.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 01:35:23 pm by 440 »
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Offline Ghostavo

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Just to back up Karajorma's statement :rolleyes:

Earth - 4,6 billion years...
Homo sapiens sapiens - 130,000 years...
...
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Offline Flipside

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There is a bit of a problem with GM crops at the moment actually Bobboau....

Actually, I think people are getting mixed up between ethics and practice here. The fact is that for every ideal, there is someone ready to cash in on it, and it's not just limited to America, one of the most powerful organisations in the world right now isn't American, OPEC is likely to get more powerful before it's power dies as well.

The Earth is very very old indeed, last estimate I heard was 8 Billion years. Mankind has been active as 'Mankind' for about a million years, though most of our development took place in the last 5000 (in fact, the last 1000) years, and it encreases exponentially.

Mankind puts a big gap between theory and practice, where the 'Human variable' goes. This will always happen. We often blame American companies for policies that a devised by native Management and Governments. the companies turn a blind eye as long as they are making a profit and not being caught. This truth also applies to Britain, Germany, the Middle East, and any other country or company in the world. Just as the Slave trade was often based on tribal chiefs selling their own slaves, but this is conveniently forgotten when the word 'law suit' appears, also a lot of these countries are so intent on the short term profit, that they do not apply themselves to the long term.

I'm ot trying to justify this behaviour, I'm saying that mentioning the fact they are 'American' companies is utterly irrelevent, I'm pretty sure with a bit of Web-searching etc, I could probably find equal examples of companies and Governments from all over the world indulging in precisely the same practices.

I'm not certain that Democracy is the Goose that lays the Golden Egg anyhow, since as soon as people get into power they seem to completely forget what the worlds 'Public Servant' actually means and seem to think they have the right to tell the people what they think, rather than represent their current thoughts,which is what they are allegedly supposed to do.

At the end of the day America is the richest and most advanced country on the planet, and they, whether it is liked or not, are our hope for surviving the next 100 years. Yes, they don't do a perfect job, but even the Romans had enemies and they had one of the most tolerant Empires around.

So don't blame it on America blame it on the companies, which quite often have their headquarters in some little Tax haven in the caribbean etc, so, strictly speaking, aren't American.

 

Offline Rictor

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Rictor...

No. I give up. You're wrong, but your idealism blinds you, or I'm wrong and my cynicism blinds me. Either way, there's no point in continuing. Huzzah, national identity means nothing, all men are brothers, you can push your beliefs on me and mine willy nilly and I can't do anything about it! I'm not allowed faith, or belief in anything but what you declare is good and right and just!

If you like, I grant you blanket permission to declare victory for now and in the future, for any debate into which you enter, with anyone.


Thanks, thats very generous of you, but I don't need your say so ;) ;)

Just to wrap this up in some way, I am not, nor have I ever stated so, in favour on forcing my beliefs on anyone. I am *for* self determination. Along with this, I am *against* all those forces (governments, individuals, religions etc) at oppose self-determination. If America or China or Finland opposes self-determination, either for its own citizens or for anyone else, I will be against them. This is why you hear so much *****ing about America from me, becuase I percieve them to be against the right of self-determination.

edit: Nationalism is the religion of the aethiests and believers alike. A security blanket without purpose or logic. One which I hope we will soon outgrow.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 01:59:04 pm by 644 »

 

Offline karajorma

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
The Earth is very very old indeed, last estimate I heard was 8 Billion years. Mankind has been active as 'Mankind' for about a million years, though most of our development took place in the last 5000 (in fact, the last 1000) years, and it encreases exponentially.


Where are you people getting your figures from? Ghostavo had it correct but it's not like five seconds worth of goggling can't find you the correct number. :)

As for the age of mankind it depends on where you draw the line. Homo Sapiens haven't been around that long but our first ancestors to walk upright are estimated at over 6 million years ago (which turned out to be twice as long as previously thought).
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Offline mikhael

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor


Thanks, thats very generous of you, but I don't need your say so ;) ;)

Just to wrap this up in some way, I am not, nor have I ever stated so, in favour on forcing my beliefs on anyone. I am *for* self determination. Along with this, I am *against* all those forces (governments, individuals, religions etc) at oppose self-determination. If America or China or Finland opposes self-determination, either for its own citizens or for anyone else, I will be against them. This is why you hear so much *****ing about America from me, becuase I percieve them to be against the right of self-determination.


Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Huzzah, national identity means nothing, all men are brothers, you can push your beliefs on me and mine willy nilly and I can't do anything about it! I'm not allowed faith, or belief in anything but what you declare is good and right and just!
[I am not really here. This post is entirely a figment of your imagination.]

 

Offline Flipside

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Karajorma, you have to bear in mind, the last time I even cared what age the Earth was, was when I was watching the original run of 'Life on Earth' with David Attenborough, thinking might just have changed since then ;)

 

Offline Rictor

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Whatever, interpret it any way you like. You seem to be using my quote to prove yours, when it quite plainly disproves it.

 

Offline mikhael

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
No no, I'm not trying to disprove it. I'm responding to it.

Here, I'll respond again:
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Huzzah, national identity means nothing, all men are brothers, you can push your beliefs on me and mine willy nilly and I can't do anything about it! I'm not allowed faith, or belief in anything but what you declare is good and right and just!


It'll be pretty much my standard response from now on, I think.
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Offline Ace

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
edit: Nationalism is the religion of the aethiests and believers alike. A security blanket without purpose or logic. One which I hope we will soon outgrow.


Which will then be replaced with speciesim.

"Damn lobster headed aliens taking our jobs! Earth first!"
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Offline Flipside

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
First rule of Evolution : Us First!

First rule of Creationism : Us First!

;)

And on subject, it's apparently serious enough for North Korea to request foreign aid. That is VERY serious! :(

 

Offline Bobboau

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
ok, to quicky clarify the stupidity ariseing from my "4 billion years of evolution" comment. The earth, last time I checked, is beleved to be about 4-5 billion years, old. there is beleved to have been life here for 3.5-4.5 billion years, when I said "4 billion years of evolution on an animal", I was actualy refering to the whole thing not just sence we would call ourselves human, but from the first cell of life in general, I thought the comment conveyed this quite directly, but aparently I need to write a paragraph of clarification for every sentence I write.

terminator genes were introduced as a method to prevent the nightmarish ecological holocoust that many people were initaly screaming about. it did take you only a good month or two to figure out a new thing to ***** about. if a farmer doesn't want to buy new seeds every year, then he can just not use geneticly altered seeds. the big issue in question is why did sevral European nations and envoronmental organisations talk africa out of feeding it's people?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2004, 09:00:47 pm by 57 »
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Offline mikhael

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Because you can't stop GM crops from cross pollinating with non-GM crops, which means the next crop will be GM, even if you planted non-GM.

Then there's the whole problem with "terminator" genes. What happens when your heirloom seedstock is contaminated with GM 'terminator' genes?

Its really not a good picture.
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Offline karajorma

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Do you think the starving in Africa really care about that? As said before the terminator genes were only introduced to stop the whining of the anti-GM crowd in the first place. Instead they've just turned it into something else to moan about.

I agree with Penn & Teller on this one. Unless you and yours are starving you need to shut the **** up.
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Offline Rictor

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Unless you and yours are starving you need to shut the **** up.


You can't possibly be serious. Thats like saying rapists are free to go about their jolly business, so long as they stay out of my house. The fact that you yourself are not starving is a random chance. I had this book, probably still do somewhere in storage, that was a really cool, hands-on type book for kids to find out about the world. In it, there was this little spinner, and a pie graph around it. You spin the thing, and depending on where it stops, you're born in that economic situation. The rich, like the US and Britain, were of course the smallest chunk. Then another "moderatly poor" chunk and another "starving" chunk, which was the biggest IIRC. Random chance, thats all.

 

Offline Flipside

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North Korea: 3000 killed or injured in train explosion
Actually there seems to be a problem with the coding of the Terminator Gene anyway, while it prevents the seeds from germinating, it doesn't prevent certain GM traits getting into surrounding flora :(

http://www.organicconsumers.org/ge/argentina100603.cfm

http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?RecID=2530

 

Offline Bobboau

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ok, big pot of GM food, _not seeds_, grown harvested finished produce, sits on a ship, while thosands starve to death, becase some people talked Africa out of accepting it
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Offline Flipside

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Oh, I agree with you there Bobboau, that situation is stupid, I have yet to see the slightest evidence that GM crops themselves are dangerous to humans. Indeed, I would love to see orbital hydroponic GM crop farms, powered by solar energy, I honestly think that is the way forward, and, apart from the launch, they would effectively be very cheap to build.
So we are all waiting on a proper re-useable space vessel.

But it not just a question of making sure they don't starve this year.....