[Janos]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/04/30/macedonia.terrorism.ap/index.html

SKOPJE, Macedonia (AP) -- Macedonian police gunned down seven innocent immigrants, then claimed they were terrorists, in a killing staged to show they were participating in the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism, authorities said Friday.

Police spokeswoman Mirjana Konteska told reporters that six people, including three former police commanders, two special police officers and a businessman, have been charged by police with murder.

If convicted, they could be sentenced from 10 years to life in prison.

"That was an act of a sick mind," Konteska said after a two-year investigation. "They ... ordered the brutal murder of the seven Pakistani men."

She described a meticulous plan to promote Macedonia as a player in the fight against global terrorism that involved smuggling the Pakistanis into Macedonia from Bulgaria, housing them, and then coldly gunning them down.

The killings, she added, were part of an attempt to "present themselves as participants in the war against terrorism and demonstrate Macedonia's commitment to the war on terror."

Since breaking away from Yugoslavia in 1991, Macedonia has been eager to win U.S. political and economic support in its search for acceptance into the Western camp of nations.

Macedonia has been a close U.S. ally in the Balkans. It has staunchly supported the U.S.-led war on terrorism and sent troops to Iraq.

The so-called "Rastanski Lozja" action was carried out in March 2002 by special Macedonian police who claimed to have eliminated a terrorist group allegedly plotting to attack international embassies and representatives in Macedonia.

Konteska said that the seven Pakistani men were in fact illegal immigrants who were lured into Macedonia by promises that they would be transferred to Western Europe.

She refused to directly name the suspects.

Kontenska mentioned, however, that police generals Goran Stojkov and Boban Utkovski, and senior police official Aleksandar Cvetkovski, were among those allegedly involved.

She also named former Interior Minister Ljube Boskovski, who is a parliament deputy, in connection with the shootings.

Shortly after the announcement, a parliamentary committee revoked the immunity from prosecution that Boskovski enjoyed as a legislator. Officials said the committee had met earlier in the day following a request from judge heading the inquiry.

Boskovski, interior minister under the former nationalist government, headed the police during Macedonia's 2001 ethnic conflict. He was minister when the Pakistanis were killed.

He denied the allegations, telling reporters that he and his associates received a tip about the alleged Pakistani terrorists from unidentified "American intelligence officers."

Konteska however said a forensic and ballistic investigation confirmed the action was staged. She said the investigation was not finished and more suspects could be found.

At the time, senior police officials said the seven men were killed after a police patrol was am****ed. Police claimed that assault rifles, hand grenades and ammunition were found near a van used by the Pakistanis.

Konteska said the plan to set up the Pakistanis and kill them was made by top police officials in February 2002, when the seven men were brought into the country from Bulgaria and housed in Skopje, the capital.

On March 3, they were taken by police to Rastanski Lozja, about three miles (5 kilometers) northeast of Skopje, and gunned down by special police, Konteska said.

"They lost their lives in a staged murder," said Konteska.

After the killings, the U.S. Embassy released a statement that said U.S. personnel were "not aware of any indication that there was a specific threat" to the embassy.

A U.S. State Department official said on condition of anonymity that the United States had pressed for a inquiry and was pleased there would finally be one.

In apparent retaliation for the deaths, Macedonia's consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, was rocked by a bomb blast on Dec 5, 2002.

Pakistani investigators found three bodies inside -- two men and a woman -- each with their hands and feet bound and their throats slit. Messages scrawled on a wall referred to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida group and warned against "infidels."

There was no comment from the U.S. Embassy on Friday. Pakistan does not have an embassy in Skopje.

Craig Ratcliff, spokesman for NATO in Macedonia, told the Associated Press Friday that the "international community at the time did not have a clear picture whether that was an anti-terrorist operation or something else."

He said NATO was pleased about the government investigation, describing it as "very much a positive step."

[Taristin]

That's just...

Glad they caught wind and are doing something about it, though.

[kasperl]

And this is why I have a problem with the "War on Terror". This, off course, is a very extreme example, but I wouldn't want to be an Arab right now. People are getting so bloody paranoid.

And, well, I really wonder if this even makes the papers out here.

[Taristin]

$10 says it'll be on the bottom scrolly doo-dad on the big news channels, but never be explained in detail.

[kasperl]

We don't even have dedicated news channels here, one "economic" excuse to fit in a lot of commercials, but that's it.

[Taristin]

Lucky you. My dad leaves them on almost all day when he's home.  Drives me nuts. They only repeat the same 3 useless bits of information over and over.

Funny, how when we had the sniper in and around washington, they wanted to have the cast of CSI as forensic specialists...

[vyper]

@ CSI bit.

[Rictor]

The KLA are operating in numbers in Macedonia, just so y'all know. Thats their (Macedonia's) thanks for taking in Albanian refugess in '99.

She described a meticulous plan to promote Macedonia as a player in the fight against global terrorism that involved smuggling the Pakistanis into Macedonia from Bulgaria, housing them, and then coldly gunning them down.

I'm called a conspiracy theorist for questioning the party line, but stuff like this passes as official information

[karajorma]

It's not a consiracy theory Rictor. Do you have a more sensible theory for why the government imported 7 pakistanis and then shot them and said they were terrorists?

Considering the fact that the officers involved are now facing murder charges it's pretty obvious that the above is exactly what happened.

[JarC]

Originally posted by vyper
@ CSI bit.

that is not funny at all, if anything, it's just another example of how they can't distinguish between reality and fiction...think of it, a nation with a fast growing number of folks that are no longer in touch with reality...

[Rictor]

Originally posted by karajorma
It's not a consiracy theory Rictor. Do you have a more sensible theory for why the government imported 7 pakistanis and then shot them and said they were terrorists?

Considering the fact that the officers involved are now facing murder charges it's pretty obvious that the above is exactly what happened.

Don't know much about Macedonia do you? They're a tiny country, kind of on the poorish side. They've got thousands of valid KLA targets running around, they have no need to import Pakistanis. And they couldn't even if they wanted to, you seriously overestimate their resources.

I have a more plausible explaination. Now that Afghanistan has been invaded, the tribal areas of Pakistan are one of the main staging areas for all sorts of Islamic fundamentalists. How many of the guys rotting in Gitmo were arrested in Pakistan? And the KLA is known to have very close ties with Islamic militant groups. Now, what could 7 Pakistanis possibly be doing in Macedonia, where the KLA is causing huge amounts of trouble, trying to annex Macedonian territory? I wonder....

[vyper]

Originally posted by JarC
that is not funny at all, if anything, it's just another example of how they can't distinguish between reality and fiction...think of it, a nation with a fast growing number of folks that are no longer in touch with reality...

It's funny when you have no expectations of them in the first place.

[Ace]

Originally posted by JarC
that is not funny at all, if anything, it's just another example of how they can't distinguish between reality and fiction...think of it, a nation with a fast growing number of folks that are no longer in touch with reality...

It'll be more scary when someone asks **** during a press conference how we're doing against the Xindi due to their attacking Florida.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Rictor
I wonder....

I'm wondering too, wtf are you trying to say?

[Rictor]

I am trying to say that having 7 Pakistanis in an area where there is heavy KLA activity is nothing strange or inexplicable. Its like having 7 Pakistanis killed in Iraq.

I am also saying that it is insane to believe that Macedonia had the will, much less the method, to "import" 7 guys from Pakistan only to have them killed. They don't need to ship them in, theres plenty of them running around.

But believe what you'de like. A voice from on high has proclaimed it true, so who am I to argue....

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Rictor
I have a more plausible explaination. Now that Afghanistan has been invaded, the tribal areas of Pakistan are one of the main staging areas for all sorts of Islamic fundamentalists. How many of the guys rotting in Gitmo were arrested in Pakistan? And the KLA is known to have very close ties with Islamic militant groups. Now, what could 7 Pakistanis possibly be doing in Macedonia, where the KLA is causing huge amounts of trouble, trying to annex Macedonian territory? I wonder....

And then the government claims that they weren't terrorists after shooting them why?

For someone who complains at the evil of America all the time you're sickeningly blind to the stuff that goes on closer to home aren't you.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by karajorma


And then the government claims that they weren't terrorists after shooting them why?

For someone who complains at the evil of America all the time you're sickeningly blind to the stuff that goes on closer to home aren't you.

As I said, you don't know much about Macedonia. Tell me, whats more plausible:

a) Several Macedonian policemen, acting without government approval or resources, "import" 7 Pakistanis, so they can kill them and look like heros. They are able to bring them into the country, without anyone knowing about it, and yet are unable to so much as put an AK in their hands, to make the killings look legitimate.

or

b) 7 Pakistanis, belonging to  Islamic militant groups sympathetic to the KLA, come to the area to support the KLA against the Macedonian government. They are shot.

now, theres really two things which you need to ask yourself: Is the KLA operating in Macedonia. And does the KLA have links to militants Islamic groups? If the answer to both of these is yes, and there is plenty of evidence to confirm that it is, than option B is the right answer. If you believe that one or both of the above is not true, I would advise you to look up some info on the subject, since it is rather safe to assume you have no great knowledge of the conflict.

____

As for why the government is claiming they were rouge, that would be for the simple reason that Macedonia is small and poor. If America ever decided they didn't quite like Macedonia's policies, the economic and/or military backlash would **** the over. Badly...

[karajorma]

You what?

If Macedonia are trying to get into America's good books they wouldn't have invented this stuff about them not being terrorists.

I'm well aware of who the KLA are. but to understand this you don't need to. You still haven't given me a plausable explaination for why the government would claim that terrorist were actually innocent civilians who were lured to their death.

In fact your explaination is actually a good reason why Macedonia would cover this up and continue to let everyone think that they were terrorists.

And your assertion that since the KLA has links to militant muslim groups and therefore any pakistani in Macedonia had to be a terrorist is nothing short of racist.

[Rictor]

Actually, before you even think about passing judgement on any conflict, it is crucial to have some knowledge of the history. Same applies here as everywhere else.

Please don't be PC about it. I can safely claim that Pakistanis do not immigrate to Macedonia, without being rascist. If you could pick anywhere in the world to immigrate to, Macedonia, for all its virtues, would be nowhere near the top of anyone's list. I don't fool myself into thinking that droves of people are going to want to come to live in Serbia, few people who are not of Yugoslav origin choose to live there. Same thing for Macedonia. This is not Canada we're talking about, its not a "melting pot" of culutres. You know who lives in Macedonia? Macedonians, thats it. Maybe a few Serbs who have family there, but you're not really going to have a Chinatown in Skoplje or a Little Italy. Especially, when there is such a clear animosity between the KLA (who are Muslim, and don't call me rascist its a fact) and the Macedonian government. Are you telling me that of all the places in the world, 7 innocent Pakistanis chose to move to a country with few redeeming features where there just happens to be trouble brewing between an Islamic militant group and the government?

The word is out, via CNN et al, that these Pakistanis were "innocent immigrants". The Macedonian government is powerless to do anything about that message, its already out and no one asked them. If they were to side with the police who did the killings, and claim that these guys were terrorsts, they would be seen to be rascist and it would look like the whole country is trying to fool the world into thinking they're the big brave terrorst-killers, a story which has already been denounced by the major media sources. So, what are the choices open to the government? Side with the cops, and have the world hate them, or throw the cops in jail and hope for some pity from a gravely misinformed international community...

[karajorma]

Oh you're having a laugh now.  They're so scared of international opinion that they're going to arrest their former interior minister on trumped up charges.  

You really are living in a fantasy world Rictor.

If these really were terrorists they would say so. They might claim that they were shot in cold blood but I doubt they'd invent this story which shows their own country in a dreadful light just to make everyone happy.

The word is out via CNN because a goverment spokesperson said they were innocent. Until then I doubt anyone had heard of this story.

As for Pakistanis not moving to Macedonia yet again you're showing your weird twisted logic. Did you not consider the fact that they were mearly passing through on the way to somewhere else? Besides if all the pakistanis in Macedonia are terrorists then surely the authorities would just round them up.

Here. Read the Amnesty Internation report on the case and then come back and talk crap

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR650122002?open&of=ENG-MKD

Pretty hard to believe that they were islamic terrorists when one of them was a sikh!