Author Topic: PCS converting question  (Read 4928 times)

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Offline ShadowPuppet

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PCS converting question
Thanks Flipside ... I will try it that way. Merge points does quite a useful cleanup job on the verts...but I think I will also need to modify my building technique in some areas. Deleting the polygon BEFORE I weld the verts would avoid problems when simplifying areas of Boolean 'polygon proliferation' .... as would checking for these things before I map ;)

Whatever Kazan may say, I would rather bin PCS than bin Lightwave. Modelview converted the ship just fine and it works in game ..... and thats all I need.

Victory for the Lightwave Liberation Army!

Down with the Truespace Tyrants ;)
Victory for the Lightwave Liberation Army!

Down with the Truespace Tyrants ;)

 

Offline Bobboau

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PCS converting question
just open and save in truespace, that should solve the problem, and you'll get corectly formed pofs, PCS _IS_ the only program that generates corect BSP data, it'll look fine, but I assure you it won't be.
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PCS converting question
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
just open and save in truespace, that should solve the problem, and you'll get corectly formed pofs, PCS _IS_ the only program that generates corect BSP data, it'll look fine, but I assure you it won't be.


This is not helpful at all... you say it won't "look" fine even if it "look" fine... that's just funny.
I converted like 70 ships using tools ranging from PCS to Modelview to Cob2fs2 to Cob2Pof, and -never- found any difference between them.
You and Kazan say it should have problems, but can't point me what those problems are... prolems that neither me nor anyone who have seen my models ever noticed.

I'm not saying you are not telling the truth about this, as i said i'm no expert and you are, but if you want to help just point us in the direction of finding those problems and get rid of them.

 

Offline KARMA

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PCS converting question
btw I've converted many models with modelview too, without finding problems on the resulting pofs, I still have to find the time to take shots to show what's my problem with pcs *takes a note*, on the other hand I never got modelview to convert correctly shields.

 

Offline Kazan

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PCS converting question
ryuune75: that's because you don't know anyhting about the internals of the model format

try using the mesh debugging features on PCS on a model generated by another program sometime.

------------


ShadowPuppet: Pulling an attitude with me is the fastest way to get my foot up your ass and even less help

People having problems with using 3rd party programs and then *****ing at me is getting older than people asking about FreeSpace 3

Why Don't I support those programs? THEY DON'T PRODUCE PROPER .COBs - If you want a native ****ing .lwo converter DOWNLOAD THE DAMN PCS PLUGIN SDK AND WRITE THE ****ING THING

Remember
A) Cannot have any duplicate polys
B) Cannot have polygons with coincident centroids
C) A polygon should be a plane segment - ie all points in the SAME plane
D) No Polygon should have more than 20 points [FS2 Requirement]

if you have A or B (if you have A, then you have B) then it WILL go into a infinite recursion and mmay not catch itself - it should catch itself,  but bad input data breaks the algorithm (*gasp* imagine that! giving an algorithm invalid data an expecting it to work normally causing it to screw up! oh the humanity!)

C and D cause problems ingame (C visual screw ups, D fs2.puke())

What do the other programs do wrong?

They incorrectly generated boundboxes and sortnorms (which contain a boundbox) for the BSP data.  

What does this cause? Incorrect collision, lighting and occlusion detection - which results in slow downs, objects passing thrgouh each other, and incorrect light rendering.

What programs suffer from this problem? All programs except PCS versions >= 1.3.4

-----------

Summary: you problem is USER ERROR, and if when told that like before you get belligerent with me that just pisses me off

squawk on about that stupid "lightwave liberation" crap and i'll make DAMN CERTAIN to alter the code to make sure it checks for inconsistencies common to LWO (that are present even in convertable models) and then have it refuse to convert it
« Last Edit: May 21, 2004, 06:34:01 am by 30 »
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Offline karajorma

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PCS converting question
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
C) A polygon should be a plane segment - ie all points in the SAME plane


That doesn't apply to models built for FSO does it? Just ones for FS2 Retail right?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline ShadowPuppet

  • monkey/fish war person
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PCS converting question
Ahh Kazan.... I think you'll find the first post with attitude was all yours...

1) I didn't *****...I asked some questions
2) I don't think posting a refusal of help is suitable behaviour for a moderator .... If you don't want to help..just don't post.
3) If I want help....you have already made it clear you won't be the one to offer it, so any future posts requesting help will NOT be intended for you.
4) When I set up the hierarchy in Truespace before importing to PCS the final saved output IS from Truespace. So I won't be needing a LWO plugin.

I hear the sound of dead horses being flogged ...

If any moderators are around, I suggest you lock this thread. Kazan has made his opinion clear, and I have formed a clear opinion of him as a result. Nothing is to be gained from continuing this.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2004, 10:56:34 am by 1138 »
Victory for the Lightwave Liberation Army!

Down with the Truespace Tyrants ;)

 

Offline Bobboau

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PCS converting question
if you want to see one of the most visable errors caused by the other converters, pass a ship that is between you and a local star, watch the sun glare, it will pop in and out of exsistance through the hull of the ship. you will also likely be able to fly through these sections especaly if you are in a model converted by these programs as well. also PCS does a better (though it copuld still be improved) job of calculateing mass, most other programs simply give each ship an arbitrary amount (ie 500, for everything from a 1 meter missle to a 7 km supper jug).

non-planer polys are less of an issue with FSO, becase FSO (int HTL mode) triangulates everything. it is however still an issue when converting, becase it's hard to tell wich side of a poly another poly is on when the verts of that first polly arn't all on the same side. this is allso the reason why intersecting polys are very very bad, it's hard to tell wich side a poly another poly is on when they go through each other.

Kaz, I had an idea for fixing the problems assosiated with geocentric pollys, you could simply place any two polys that have the same center into the same leaf of the BSP tree, if you look at the data produced by the V converter, you'll find that there are a lot of polygons held in the same leaf, and interesting thing about BSP trees it is sometimes faster to simply test a few polygons than to recurse everything down to an individual poly.

from the sound of it ShadowPuppet, it sounded like you were takeing a model directly from lightwave and converting it to cob without useing truespace, it's hard enough to find a converter that truespace it's self will accept, it is unreasonable to require suport of half complyant file standards of every dolt in the world who wants to make a cob exporter, Kaz only suports files saved by truespace, if you are still haveing issues with getting your model converted maybe you should try a diferent cob exporter, as mentioned 3DE has a proven track record, you should try that, but still open and save from truespace.
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

  

Offline Kazan

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PCS converting question
I just figured out a way to calculate the mass for accurate (and it's a dynamic programming algorithm too! Oh! Eat that Professor Eulenstein! Yeah!) - Sum the volumes out of the BSP::BoundBox in the LOD1 tree and multiply that sum by a scaling constant (that you could play with in the options screen)

karajorma: that is still a requirement
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Offline Flipside

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PCS converting question
Bobboau, Shadowpuppet does say in his post that he sets up the hierarchy in Truespace and saves it from there. Though I might suggest more people try saving as scenes than models, I've had more success using .scn files for conversion.

I'd suggest ShadowPuppets best bet is to get someone to take a quick look at his model and see if it is this which is playing up or if their is something looping in the hierarchy, most people don't realise that the order you create the lights in actually effects how the model is compiled etc.

And Kazan, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make PCS look for Lightwave models and fail, that really wouldn't make my day ;) hehehehe

 

Offline Kazan

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PCS converting question
oh.. i found it

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kazan/screens/BBCompare2.png

the bottom one is incorrect - and that's how all PCSs before 1.3.X and all the other programs generate pof's - the top is correct


see a problem? http://www.public.iastate.edu/~kazan/screens/Bounding.png
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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PCS converting question
oooh, i never noticed those two buttons before. :D awesome! :yes:
*scurries off to test stuff*

ugh, 13 models with bad bits. :shaking:

anyways, thanks a ton. :) they easily picked out my models with the known collision errors, and highlighted a few areas on some others i don't think i tested properly.

one question i do have about these functions: what does it mean when the model only has a single red box around it when in 'sort norm bounding debug' mode only?
the models i see this on have working collision IIRC.
like this one:

the turrets are wrong, so i'll probably recompile this particular one later anyway, but it's happened on a few models that i had thought were final and fully functioning. does it mean i should recompile them anyway?
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Offline Kazan

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PCS converting question
you either compiled that with PCS before I fixed the error, or you compiled it with one of the other programs
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Offline Vasudan Admiral

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PCS converting question
PCS 1.1 a long while ago i think yeah.
well, i'll be recompiling it anyway sometime in the future since there are a couple of other places i screwed up in :)
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Offline Flipside

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PCS converting question
<--------- Is scared to do this with his models ;)