[Rictor]

OT, but worth looking at. There are like 2-3 articles a day which I consider worthy of posting, so I just try to throw it in the latest political thread. Sorry if this inconveniences anybody.

Trrops hold Iraqis as bargaining chips...

[Bobboau]

hmm, well at least now the whole "99.99% of the people imprisoned are inocent" makes some degree of sence, but why would it take this long for that sort of story to come out?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Bobboau
hmm, well at least now the whole "99.99% of the people imprisoned are inocent" makes some degree of sence, but why would it take this long for that sort of story to come out?

On the one hand, because it's as pointless to debate the authenticity of that tape as it is to argue over the 'faked' moon landings.  pure coffeehouse intellectualism.

If someone truly wants to believe that either the tape is faked or it was a concoction by some shadowy group in the US Military, there's absolutely nothing you can do to convince them otherwise.  

On the other hand, anything is worth arguing.

Except perhaps the idiocy that chose Britney's Hot Dance Game over Freespace 3....

[Bobboau]

auhm, were you trying to quote me or someone else, I was responding to the other artcicle Rictor posted, the one that didn't have anything to do with the topic.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Bobboau
I like how some people are willing to beleive that we decapatated a man just so we could make propaganda against Al Qeta, but if someone sais something like "the US military does not intentionaly kill unarmed civilians" they go nuts.
if for just once, JUST ONCE, I could click on a "hey this is funny" or "isn't this interesting" thread, that had evedence that the US may NOT be the most concentrated source of evil, maybe I could posably consider not thinking that some people are just ****ing brain washed morons!

You completly refuse to even consider the fact that your countrymen could do anything wrong or evil and call people who believe they could and do brainwashed? Btw your first statement makes no sense.

Corsair, watch the video, its very badly edited. Shot by two camera whos timestamps dont match up at all, and the sound jumps right out of synch just before they attack Berg.

The hats not damning by itself, its every other little thing about the whole episode, the fact that Berg was detained for an couple of weeks by the US in Iraq, the fact that he was detained in the US by the FBI for suspected al-queda links, the fact that he was on a right-wing hate list, and the orange jumpsuit.  Theres also Zarqawi who wears a mask and then tells us who he is He also moves quite well for a man with one leg.

[Rictor]

also, Zarqawi was reported to have been killed recently, according to a pamphlet circulated by certain Islamic groups. Or am I mixing him up with someone else?

[aldo_14]

NB: consider this though - what would the consequences be if the video if the video was fake?  And, given that, would they really have been stupid enough to shoot it in Abu-Graib and inadvertantly video themselves?  

That's what makes me skeptical over this whole 'fake' thing.

[Gank]

Posted this before, go read it:
http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
NB: consider this though - what would the consequences be if the video if the video was fake?  And, given that, would they really have been stupid enough to shoot it in Abu-Graib and inadvertantly video themselves?  

That's what makes me skeptical over this whole 'fake' thing.

The magic bullet theory was pretty stupid too. No one ever seemed to care enough to take any serious effort to discredit it though.

The CIA's plan to kill John Glenn and blame it on the russians was pretty stupid but that didn't stop them from writing it down.

The american public (in fact the public of any western democracy) are so used to being lied to that we never really do anything no matter how hideous the crime.

Even if this video was proved to be fake I'd bet it wouldn't alter Bush's relection chances by anything more than a few tenths of a percent.

[Flipside]

The problem is, after the 'Mirror affair' our papers are very very very reluctant to even bring this to the public's attention.

'Telling you the truth, unless the truth may make you question our motives, or might make you too uneasy'. It's always been the same.

I agree that if the US were really going to do this, they would not be unsubtle enough to make those mistakes. it's just too sloppy.

Both sides here are playing a phsycological game with the public, and I'd be perfectly prepared to accept that Terrorists are smart enough to deliberately insert this stuff, so that it can be discovered by a completely innocent person later, it's a very clever tactic, and it's been used before.

Or, of course, it could all be co-incidence, I see a green hat, but that's all, not army, just green. But if our press were truly free, they would be drawing this to peoples attention, even if it's in the guise of 'making the government aware' so that it can be disputed and, hopefully, refuted.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Flipside
I agree that if the US were really going to do this, they would not be unsubtle enough to make those mistakes. it's just too sloppy.  

Fair point but who says that this was an official policy? It's quite possible that if this is a fake, someone in Iraq came up with the idea to get the attention off of the whole torture issue. Probably someone involved in the whole torture scandal.

The government would be forced to then clean up afterwards, once the damage had been done. And they couldn't possibly let the truth get out cause this would be worse than the whole torture scandal was.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Flipside
I agree that if the US were really going to do this, they would not be unsubtle enough to make those mistakes. it's just too sloppy.

No they're not. Look at the US's track record in Iraq for the last year, subtle is not a word which springs to mind.

Originally posted by Flipside
Both sides here are playing a phsycological game with the public, and I'd be perfectly prepared to accept that Terrorists are smart enough to deliberately insert this stuff, so that it can be discovered by a completely innocent person later, it's a very clever tactic, and it's been used before.

Read up on some of the things Zarqawi has taken credit for, the man supposedly issued a statement claiming responsibility for a carbombing which killed 200 Iraqi shias and claimed to be trying to start a civil war between Sunnis and Shias right after a general uprising against the americans started in the shia south. if hes trying to finger americans for things, hes pretty hopeless at it.

Originally posted by Flipside
Or, of course, it could all be co-incidence, I see a green hat, but that's all, not army, just green. But if our press were truly free, they would be drawing this to peoples attention, even if it's in the guise of 'making the government aware' so that it can be disputed and, hopefully, refuted.

It wont be disputed or refuted, it'll just fall under the you're just saying this because you hate america catagory, like all the unanswered questions about the wtc attacks.

[Reez]

i've only seem the clips from the site that was posted, I haven't seen the actual video as of yet. But there would be no point for Zarqawri to wear a mask when he announces his name, since almost everyone already knows what he looks like.

The more times you see the video, the less it makes sense for radical Muslims to do it. There's more efficient ways to kill someone than cut their head off.

[Grey Wolf]

Well, beheading is the official method of execution in Saudi Arabia, IIRC.

[Gank]

With a sword, not sawing it off with a knife. Its only practised in Saudi though, a wahabbi country and zarqawi's a jordanian sunni iirc.

This site has a good rundown of the discrepancys.
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

one other thing that bothered me about it, why not kill Maupin, the US soldier that the Iraqis have, makes more sense than killing a civvie if this was done in revenge for the torture photos.

[Rictor]

...and what is this? a voice in Enlgish saying "how will it be done".
touche

from Gank's article:

33) Western body posture and mannerisms of "terrorists"
The "terrorists" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms. They seem to be at parade rest at times.

34) "Terrorists" were fat
Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or Mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.

35) White hands of "terrorists"
Some of the "Arab terrorists" have pasty-white hands and (other exposed) skin. One would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands. (See: Nick Berg Conspiracy Theories Abound.)

36) Wrong accent
Al-Zarqawi is/was Jordinian. Arab linguists have said the man posing as Al-Zarqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

37) Change in masks by beheader
To quote a K5 comment:
"The guy who holds up the head at the end has a white mask and no vest. The guy who pulls out the knife and starts cutting is in a black mask. The only guy with a white mask is wearing a green vest"

38) Voice id
Al-Zarqawi's identification by the CIA was based on "probable" voice id of the videotape.

39) Al-Zarqawi's missing leg
Al-Zarqawi was missing one leg. Al-Zarqawi allegedly wears a prosthetic device, according to previous CIA reports. (See: IHT Protrait of Al-Zarqawi.) There is no evidence that the killer wore a prosthetic device. Further, Al-Zarqawi had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally. No man in the group showed evidence of such infirmity.

40) Missing tattoos?
Large green tattooed "dots" are known to be on the back of Abu Musab Zarqawi's left hand. These tattoos cannot be seen in the close up video of the execution, though the back of his hand is fairly visible. (See: IHT Protrait of Al-Zarqawi.)

41) Al-Zarqawi dead?
Numerous indigenous sources have said Al-Zarqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.

42) Gold ring on killer's hand
The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi seems to be wearing a gold ring. Note: This is a questionable point. To quote Healing Iraq (healingiraq.blogspot.com) as quoted at this angryfinger.org post (Nick Berg Conspiracy Theories Abound): "Islam does not specifically forbid that men wear gold, in fact the Quran and the Hadith have encouraged men to 'adorn' and 'embellish' themselves (dying hair, perfume, etc.) .... the practice of wearing gold ornaments is discouraged by Muslim clerics, "Gold is the ornament of women". Socially it is not acceptable in the Arab world for men to wear gold, although this has changed lately and many young men do (engagement and wedding rings are mostly gold)."

43) Why anonymous?
Al-Zarqawi's face is very well-known. If Al-Zarqawi was the perpetrator, why did he bother to cover it the whole time? If Al-Zarqawi is trying to build a resistance movement, why did he not uncover his face at some point? (If it was another terrorist impersonating Al-Zarqawi, why is the CIA identifying the voice as Al-Zarqawi's?)

44) Iraqi denial of "terrorists"
Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

45) Firearms Israeli, not AK-47s
Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Galil." This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents use AK-47s.

that about does it for me, too many inconsistancies. it clearly wasn't Zarqawi & Co. If it was another Islamic faction, they would have taken the credit themselves instead of giving credit to Zarqawi. Which leaves one plausible option, and the evidence seems to point in that directions.

[Reez]

I find it hard to believe that the Americans would make a con that was so transparent though. I'm sure they can get some used AK-47s, find a gimp, and someone who's a Jordinian in a very short amount of time. Not to mention actual Iraqis, there are quite a few who do side with them still. And they definitely could find some that weren't fatasses either. It seems too raw, unsophisticated, and flimsy to be an American con. This is a country that managed to convince the public for 30 years that they were doing well in Vietnam, and seen as heroes. I think they could come up with some better stuff than this, especially with all the technological advances, such as voice modularity. And hell, Robin Williams can sound pretty damn Arab when he wants to, the US Army must have some linguists who can too.

[Kosh]

I would not be suprised at all if the government staged this.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Reez
I find it hard to believe that the Americans would make a con that was so transparent though. I'm sure they can get some used AK-47s, find a gimp, and someone who's a Jordinian in a very short amount of time. Not to mention actual Iraqis, there are quite a few who do side with them still. And they definitely could find some that weren't fatasses either. It seems too raw, unsophisticated, and flimsy to be an American con. This is a country that managed to convince the public for 30 years that they were doing well in Vietnam, and seen as heroes. I think they could come up with some better stuff than this, especially with all the technological advances, such as voice modularity. And hell, Robin Williams can sound pretty damn Arab when he wants to, the US Army must have some linguists who can too.

As I said before it's quite possible that this con didn't come right from the top. It's also possible that based on Kennedy the US governement think that the electorate are a bunch of credible fools who''ll believe any half-assed explaination no matter how stupid and illogical it is. Guess what? They're right.

People are saying that the media are ignoring this because the government want it covered up. That's nonsense. If that were the case why has no one in France or Germany etc picked it?

No one has picked it up cause it's a conspiracy theory and conspiracy theories are non-stories even if they are true.

Give it another 3-4 years and it will show up in documanetaries when it starts to pick up value in that sphere rather than as news.

[Rictor]

no, its a conpiracy theory if and only if you can plausibly explain away all of the above stated inconsistancies. Until you can, its an open question.

What the media should be doing is informing people of these discrepancies, and maybe even *gasp* doing their own investigation. People have a right to know that there is something other than the official story, and that its has some pretty solid backing. You know, the good old two sides of the story.

Have we realy slipped so far in our expectations of the media, that we can now accept that their job is simply to tote the party line? The media, as an institution, is immensly important, their job is to question the status quo. But these days, its like the government and media are hardly seperate entities.

Keep in mind, that media corporations have hardly any national ties, so you shouldn't expect private news outlets in France to be owned by a Frenchman, or to reflect the mentality of the French people. For example, Rupert Murdoch, the US media tycoon (and staunch Republican) controls pretty much all of Australia's media. I don't have the exact figures, but he has most of the daily newspapers, and large chunks of TV and radio. So, Australians get the same news as Americans, with the same spin. I don't see why the same could not apply in France of Germany.

There is simply too much thats wrong with the official story of Nick Berg's death to accept it on blind faith. So, there should now be an investigation (not governmental obviously) in to these claims. That has traditionally been the role of the media, but..well....