[Black Wolf]

First off, 'tis awesome that someone is at least looking at trying this It will be a major bonus for the SCP if it gets off the ground. Second, I think I may have solved several of your issues in my first post Aldo, but I'll go through my ideas again, to see if they're viable.

x / y/ z placement (maybe require some form of AI to make sensible judgements RE alignment in particular - maybe also set a
preference for variation)

FS2 already allows you to tell fighters to warp in "near ship", and set the distance from that ship. I use it a lot in TI missions for moving vessels. It's not perfect (as the distance can be controlled, but not direction, and AFAIK orientation is random) but it's not too bad either.

Background placement (just randomly? - or use region templates?)

Lightspeeds existing background templates would be ideal here, if they can be thrown in there. They're already built as .fsm files, so building off these might be a good way to start, or the relevant background sections could be stored in a table somewhere.

How to parse in ship / weapon data and use it? (specifically RE: mod recognition)

OK. I probably should have been a bit more specific here, but I was thinking something like this.

Code: [Select]


$Faction: NTF
Available FIGHTER: "GTF Loki" "GTF Myrmidon" "GTF Hercules"
Available BOMBER: "GTB Zeus" "GTB Medusa"
Available CRUISER: etc. etc.


The capital text would refer to the existing ship type flags that the ships.tbl alrerady uses. This would give the mission an idea of what it could call when you tell it to warp in a wing of fighters, and make it easy to modify. EG

Code: [Select]


$Faction: SOC
Avaliable FIGHTER: "GTF Erinyes" "GTF Banshee"
[/color]

!!!Level of user control (key! - need to judge interface too)!!!

This I don't really know - would depend on the complexity of the code, ie. what you make available for the player to control. I've given most of my suggestions for what the user could control in the first post though.

Interface itself (what to include, what level of complexity,

Presumably linked to the above.

whether to have some form of very basic 'battleships' style placement?)

I don't really think this'd be neccesary. If you primarily make this about Capships (either attacking or defending) You could define the Capships as always existing at 0,0,0. The hostiles could warp in using the "near ship" thing, and Alpha wing could be defined as always starting at, say, 2000,1000,3000 or wherever.

SEXPs - what to use and how to control

I doubt you'd want to use too many sexps, unless you could make them fire based on the "central ship" or "Hostile Largeship". If you could do this, then simple message stuff (Destroyed, arrived, hull below 50% etc.) might be all you'd want to use. If not, you might be able to set up a system similar to what FS2 already does (The AWACS messages are a good example)

Briefing generation (templated?)

Templated yeah. If you'll code the flags I'd need, I'll write the generic briefings.

Factions (how to Id & set hostiles, what about new species entries?)

If you use the above suggested table setup, factions could simply be tacked on to the end.

In terms of loadout, i'd say it's best to keep the default and allow the player to alter their loadout  - with every weapon unlocked.  Again, this'll require a way to get weapon info.

Available ships/weapons could be determined by a difficulty setting. EG, on Easy, Kaysers and Maxims are available. On Medium, you lose those. On hard, you lose those, the and Prometheus S and Circe as well.

You seem to have a pretty good grasp of how to solve a lot of them of course, and As I've mentioned, I'm no coder, so I have no idea if what I'm suggesting is even viable, but hopefully I'll be able to be of some help in the whole process.

[aldo_14]

I'm thinking of architectural stuff, mostly.... namely using certain design patterns (specifically prototype) to allow 'templated' mission generation objects, and soforth.

I'm also thinking now that it may be better just to plain read the tables and only check certain flags in them, etc.  Best for use simplicity, really.

some other thoughts (I'm just using this thread as a sketchpad);

factions - will almost definately need a config file, probably a simple mapping between species and faction name

briefing - probably use a simple template format, with random strings which have spaces for names, etc.  I've used this before for commentary in a game I wrote at uni - provided I can figure out a nice generic set of strings, should be easy.

ship names - either user specified or taken from a 'pool' defined in some config file.  May impact on the faction definition .

briefing - specifically, the icons.  Could be tough to setup this, I need to check the format in the files and figure out how to id and specify the proper icons to use.  Simple to setup positions, though....

debrief - probably very crude setup - shouldn't be a major issue, as there's no story to convey.  Again, probably based around generic pass / fail strings.

messaging (escort / attack) - will ignore this probably and leave it down to the automatic messaging



Now, one major thing I'm considering is using a proper template - i.e. a suitably generic fs2 file for a certain mission type, which is parsed in and suitably tweaked by the program ala the prototype design pattern (which is going to be used in some form to support definition of more random mission types).  I'm not sure on this yet, need to try and decide whether there'd be a benefit....

one example could be an escort mission - the path to travel and wings would be defined, the generator would alter this by modifying the ship to be escorted, tweaking the arrival, etc, times and also changing what types / factions of ship would arrive.  This could become too general, though.... of course, the other side is that a suitable setp fs2 file could be used to get all the that would normally be required from the tbls.

[J3Vr6]

This makes my head hurt, but it would be cool to see, none the less.  It would bring a huge replay value to Freespace 2 cuz once u play all the campaign missions, and have done all the single missions and gauntlets, you're basically stuck like a pig.

[Fury]

Replay value? Don't make me laugh.

Its fun several times, but since there still only a limited number of random factors, it is almost as generic as it can go.
Granted, it probably does good job in balance testing mods but in my opinion it will give you only a short time of fun.
Not to mention this takes a lot of time and patience to make it even workable, and then bug free.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Replay value? Don't make me laugh.

Its fun several times, but since there still only a limited number of random factors, it is almost as generic as it can go.
Granted, it probably does good job in balance testing mods but in my opinion it will give you only a short time of fun.
Not to mention this takes a lot of time and patience to make it even workable, and then bug free.

It can't hurt to try, can it?

[Goober5000]

Good stuff there, BW.  Especially the "Available FIGHTER:" etc.  Though I'd suggest using a parenthetical list to stay close to the table format.

[J3Vr6]

Originally posted by aldo_14


It can't hurt to try, can it?

Yeah, don't piss in our cherrios, Mr. Fury  

[kasperl]

OK, I've spent a bike ride thinking about this, and I think what you want to is the following.

You make a file, a template, containing the basics of a mission. Anything you want randomised, you simply use a certain tag, like $RndShip or $RndInterceptor. The program would acces Ship.ini or Interceptor.ini, and simply take a random entry out of it. If you want something like a ship name, you obviously want it to be the same across the plane, so you define it at the top of the file, like this:
$VarCapname1 = $RndTerCapname
Then, where ever you want the name to be listed, you use $VarCapname1 instead of a name.
If you want a random number, you simply do this:
%VarNumber001 = %Rnd(Min,Max)
Min and Max would be the minimum and maximum numbers.
The FS2 file wouldn't see this, just the implemented name, or number.
You could adapt the files easily, and add anything to randomize. If you support multi lined items, you can do random backgrounds too. And if you want to expand the lists, you only need to make it, and give it a unique name.
The program would output a fs2 file, where the random declarations are gone, and the ship names and stuff are all in place.

This way you make it as modable, and simple as possible. Expansion is always possible, but this would be, in essence, a very simple parsing job.
The input from the mission maker would be more work, but they asked for it.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Replay value? Don't make me laugh.

Its fun several times, but since there still only a limited number of random factors, it is almost as generic as it can go.
Granted, it probably does good job in balance testing mods but in my opinion it will give you only a short time of fun.
Not to mention this takes a lot of time and patience to make it even workable, and then bug free.

I disagree. Take Inferno for example. They've provided the player with a crapload of mods, fighters, capital ships, bombers etc, and several new factions (SOC, EA, Ancients). But you only ever get to play as a Terran, in the GTVA, fighting the EA or the Shivans. This would allow you to test fly the EA ships, play with their weapons. Or see whether the ancients, with Alpha One on their side, could take on a shivan destroyer. It might not add huge replay value to FS2 itself, but it'd be hugely important for big mods. Plus it'd be good fun for just satisfying the occasional urge to kill some Shivans.

Aldo - while I'm not great on the technical side of things, for the names, a list would be better, since it would make it easier to set up individual misisons IMO. Grabbing 50 names off Mythica or out of a history book would be all that'd be needed per faction (and I'd be willing to do it if it was needed). They'd have to be chosen based on Faction, but class wouldn't be much of an issue, as basically, they'd all be warship names.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kasperl
OK, I've spent a bike ride thinking about this, and I think what you want to is the following.

You make a file, a template, containing the basics of a mission. Anything you want randomised, you simply use a certain tag, like $RndShip or $RndInterceptor. The program would acces Ship.ini or Interceptor.ini, and simply take a random entry out of it. If you want something like a ship name, you obviously want it to be the same across the plane, so you define it at the top of the file, like this:
$VarCapname1 = $RndTerCapname
Then, where ever you want the name to be listed, you use $VarCapname1 instead of a name.
If you want a random number, you simply do this:
%VarNumber001 = %Rnd(Min,Max)
Min and Max would be the minimum and maximum numbers.
The FS2 file wouldn't see this, just the implemented name, or number.
You could adapt the files easily, and add anything to randomize. If you support multi lined items, you can do random backgrounds too. And if you want to expand the lists, you only need to make it, and give it a unique name.
The program would output a fs2 file, where the random declarations are gone, and the ship names and stuff are all in place.

This way you make it as modable, and simple as possible. Expansion is always possible, but this would be, in essence, a very simple parsing job.
The input from the mission maker would be more work, but they asked for it.

I would rather avoid using config files, though.  Largely because there would be little difference in terms of parsing those vs the tbl files.

NB: Let's not argue about the value of this, ok?  It won;t serve any purpose to do so - if i do start work on this, it will be as much for my own benefit (i.e. practice & for my CV) as for the benefit of others.

[kasperl]

Well, you could call the lists tables if you wanted, but why bother with parsing a table and hard-coding stuff about mission type if you can make input files and pull some names/classes/locations out of a hat?

[Fury]

Hehe, looks like I spirred up the discussion somewhat. Although I do disagree about usefullness of this feature, I will leave it at that.

Howewer, if this is to be added. Please make it a stand-alone executable and not an extension to existing fred2 and fs2 executables.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by kasperl
Well, you could call the lists tables if you wanted, but why bother with parsing a table and hard-coding stuff about mission type if you can make input files and pull some names/classes/locations out of a hat?

Because dealing with a generic mission file as input is potentially more difficult than using the tbl files.  And, also, the aim is to minimise user interaction - i.e. avoid anything which requires the user to specify information, and especially where they have to specify it in a controlled format.

Ideally, all user interaction should be through a simple GUI.  I'm thinking of the types you see in flight sim mission generators - usually just specifying a very brief 'type' of mission, then the player (and ally) fighter types and finally the number of enemies.

I'm still considering templates, but it's more likely I'd use template methods to generate missions, rather than relying upon specific-format files.

Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Hehe, looks like I spirred up the discussion somewhat. Although I do disagree about usefullness of this feature, I will leave it at that.

Howewer, if this is to be added. Please make it a stand-alone executable and not an extension to existing fred2 and fs2 executables.

That would be the plan.  The most integration would be using a command line +parameter call to start fs2 and run the mission file after completion.

[aldo_14]

I've decided I can't work on this, for personal reasons.

Sorry.

[Goober5000]

Erruh?

[kasperl]

I'll probably snap it up, but I'd probably be doing it slowly, my way, and not in the next 3 to 4 weeks.

If anyone else wants to take this on, I'll help if necesary, or just STFU and get out of the way. Remember, this would be my first ever contact with C++.