[Rictor]

read this article....what do you mean why? Cause the Bible prophesizes it, thats why.

http://csmonitor.com/2004/0707/p15s01-lire.html

[Bobboau]

"The Christian Science Monitor"
hmmm, this should to be interesting.

[Bible college  ]

[Rictor]

Despite the name, I have yet to encounter any fanatical, fundamentalist or slanted views from them. Contrary to popular belief, not all American Christians are right-wing. Just thought I'de clear that up, it was bound to come up sooner or later.

edit: they're actually among the least biased news websites that I know of.

[jdjtcagle]

It doesn't have to be now... why do they wan't it?
It's all happening isn't it...

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Bobboau
[Bible college  ]

I didn't read the whole article, but did I miss something? What's so laughable about Bible college?

[IceFire]

Church and state have been separated for a while.  French Revolution for starters...

[Bobboau]

a college were you go to study the Bible, it just strikes me as funny.

anyway, yes the reason the evangelists are suporting Israel is becase they think there bringing about the end of the world, and all us nasty atheists and non-christians will be anialated by the power of God. well good luck with that.
just becase some nutty groupe suports something doesn't mean that it's wrong, though.
there are plenty of nuts saying we should pull all suport for the "evil jew race" and let them all die a horable death. who here agrees with them, that we should pull all suport for Israel? probly a few.

[Eishtmo]

Originally posted by Bobboau
anyway, yes the reason the evangelists are suporting Israel is becase they think there bringing about the end of the world,  

Okay, I'm not all up on this religious stuff since I became an Egoist (I am God), but in what way is bringing about the end of the world a good thing?  I don't know about you, but even if I was a crazy fundamentalist nut, I sure as hell wouldn't want to force the final judgement.  All that armeggedon stuff in the Bible isn't exactly my idea of a good time, even if it promisies a great ending.  It's like playing through a really ****ty game because there might be a cool cutscene, it ain't worth it I tell ya!

Worse yet, they're seem to be trying to force God to end the world.  Do any of them think that's even a remotely smart or even possible thing to do?  If God (moi) doesn't want the damn world to end, then it damn well won't, no matter what a bunch of Bible humping lu lus say.  On top of that, I think anyone who tried to force it would end up on the wrong end of Revelations simply for pissing God (yours truly) off.

Am I the only one thinking this?  Or am I just not up on the whole end of the world thing?

[Lonestar]

The entire US supports Isreal and its policies. It strongly advises against a few decisions but in the end isreal always gets what it wants. Palestinians dont, they continue to lose land and freedoms daily due to Jewish actions. Does anyone care or stop these atrocities? No of course not.

Isreal is protected by America on the grandest of scales. Isreal and the US are aligned against all arabas in the middle east which makes Isreal and the US the best of friends.

So to say their is no support for isreal or no support for their race is absurd and misinformed. The jews have been fed with a silver spoon since world war 2 and everytime they want more its given to them or they simply take it.

Do we ever hear about Isreali Suicide bombers? No. Do they exist. Im sure they do, to think only one side is as fanatical as they are and the other isnt is again ignorant of the real situation.

Fact is Palestinians and Isrealites have been wronged each other for over 50 decades, however, isreal is funded and supported by western nations and palestine is not. America is a zionistic nation on the verge of bringing about our third world war and the fact people cant see this plain as day, when we have a prophetic guide such as the bible to let us know what will happen before it happens is insanity and extremely close-minded.

Open yoursle to reading it for a few days and see for yourself what the truth is. It can be any bible you want, as all can be read and you can drawyour own conclusions. After all the only way you will really know is if you research and find out. Otherwise your just talking out your you-know-what.

So do i think Isreal is in cohoots with the US? Yes
Do i think Isreal holds power in the senate? Yes, facts actually point to this being real.
Do i think the US is secretly trying to bring about an apocolyptic end? Yes, but not by its own will but by the will of its leaders who are extremist in the catholic sense.

Do i think the bible is right in its prophecies? It hasnt been even close to being wrong in the over 2000 years it existed, and more and more evidence points to the bible being historically correct, so yea i think the bible is right in its prophecies. Deep down i think it sucks we are subjected to this irony we call life, however to ignore the fact their is a greater being is downright stupid and ignorant two things i am not.

Deep down we all know the truth, whether we accept or mock it is what decides your fate. Funny thing is most people dont know it, or simply dont care either way im playing it safe.

[Bobboau]

they think it's there job to fufill the -proficy or something, that they arn't forceing God's hand, but that god wants them to do it. and from what I recall, they are all in this opiate haze of how wonderful the end of the world is gona be, there all gona disapear off of the face of the earth and all the heathens are gona get burned to ash.. or something, and then they get to come back and play in the ashes... or something... . I heard Pat Roberts (I think) saying that the glorius end times are at hand, that was a few years ago. these folks do truely beleive this crap, and it is worriing how much influence they seem to have, fortunately I think the polititions are just useing these people to get there vote block.

[Rictor]

It is relevant because these guys, fundamentalist Christian Zionists, are a large part of the reason why the US has and continues to support Israel despite criminal actions on their part. Its religion meddling in politics, and its hurting a hell of a lot of people.

Let me ask you, if the US were to drop all support for Israel, what do you think would happen? Another attack by the neighboring nations is not at all likely. What would probably happen is that Israel would be forced to negotiate, which is good, since they wouldn't have Uncle Sam at their backs. They would be be forced to the same standard that every other nation on Earth (US excluded) obeys, which is that they would not be able to do as they please without consequences.

Also worthy to note is that these views, by Christian Zionists, are not even accepted by most Israelis. Its easy to talk about the End Times when you don't have bombs going off in your neighborhood. When even the people for who's benefit you are allegedly working are against you, that says a little something doesn't it? I think Sandie can back this up. Without ackowledging that Palestiians have a right to homeland, free from Israeli occupation, there can be no peace. that much is clear. But when these guys are in favour of Greater Israel, based on Bible prophecy, and when they have the amount of influecne that they do, the whole peace process goes right out the window. And that gets people on both sides killed, and will continue to do so.

To clarify, I'm not attacking Christianity, far from it, who I am against is a small (well, not that small actually) group of fundamentalists, Bush and Ashcroft among them, who mixing prohecy and politics, with disastrous results. This was never intended as a debate on religion itself, just this specific group.

and BTW, I don't see anything funny about Bible camp. Theology is a wide and interesting area of study, its not quite so simple as most people think. I'ver got a book sitting on my shelf right now caled The Essence of Judaism, and its actually an interesting read, though its really tough going, due to the complexity of the subject.

[Lonestar]

If the US dropped support for Isreal the bible would be wrong.

What is the odds of that happening? Im guessing its slim to none (bible being wrong or US dropping Isreali support).

Id love to see it myself, if only to show Isreal it is not as powerful as it thinks its is, however it is as powerful as it thinks it is and is using that power admirably.

Ultimately for this to change it would take some time, and i beleive time is working against us. Once someone has control, they dont let go willingly and its my guess no matter what the US people want, the leadership will always do whats best for itself and shadow it with the excuse that its important for their freedom as usual. Again if it was repaired we may also be looking at the new leadership becoming worse. Ideally i think we just cant rule ourselves as its states in the bible, because as individuals we cannot be selfless enough to ensure the people are happy and ultimately we go in vicious cycles as we have been doing now for over 2000 years.
By the way im an Agnostic and am of no religious denomination. Anything i may beleive in is based on my own personal quest to find out who God is and where these stories come from but i also beleive we can never really know the entire truth of Gods word as this was his intentions from the beginning. Ignorance is tolerable to me because it was meant to be.

[Rictor]

Lonestar: so you do believe that we are living in the End Tmes and all the rest? Or am I just misunderstanding you? Or are you just being very pessiimistic?

but one thing I don't agree with is you claim that the entire US supports Israel (and all the negative connotations). First of all, supprting Israel is not in and of itself a bad thing. It doesn't actually mean anything. I may or may not support Israel, or any other nation, depending on what it does. I think that peope who support Irsael unconditionally are a majority, but there are significant pockets of dissent within the US. The average joe, I think, is either too ignorant to have a real opinion, or just doesn't care.

[Corsair]

Now where have I heard of this prophecy before?

Hmm...Oh right. Triple by Ken Follet. That's why the Egyptian dude works for the Mossad...because he thinks he's helping to fulfill the prophecy.

Oh you people...

[Gank]

Wheres Sandwich for this one? Nice to get a Christian Zionist living in Jerusalem's view on this.


Btw, csm is prettyy good and unbiased.

[vyper]

The reason he found it funny Steak is that most people consider college a place of academic education and achievement, where scientific methods are employed in learning, evaluation and definition of the world around us.

note: I put the "most people consider" part in to avoid any arguments about the definition of colleges remits et al.

[HotSnoJ]

Simple answer there is no "seperation of Church and State"....at least in the sense most ppl push it as.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[karajorma]

Did you even look at what you Quoted? Read the first part of that again.

[Rictor]

In fact, what these people are doing is protected by the seperation of Church and State, in one aspect at least. Ironic, I know.

You could take the position that the government shall make no laws regarding religion, which includes limiting or inhibiting it. That would give these groups protection. But another way of looking at it is that religion should play no part in governance, including foreign policy. That would limit or take away completely the power of lobby groups with religious ties, including these.

Personally, I favour the latter. I find it absurd that certain groups, including fundamentalist Christian and Zionist, can lobby the government to take up their agenda. Muslim lobbies are included equally in this, but lets be honest, no one listens to then, they have no power at all.

[Kazan]

Originally posted by HotSnoJ
Simple answer there is no "seperation of Church and State"....at least in the sense most ppl push it as.

 

must I argue this with unqualified laymen who want to impose their religion on everyone else for the millionth time?


That very clearly sets out the "seperation of church and state" - the termology we use to describe it was coined by jefferson to describe it's function.

Some of the founding fathers were christian [and then split into different types], some deists, some atheists,  however they ALL AGREED that the Seperation of Church and State was critical - and thus the 1st Ammendment to the US Constitution prohibits creating any law respecting an establishment of religion - whih means making money with "in god we trust" on it violates the constitutional mandate, having the pledge have "under god" in it violates the constitutional mandate.   Both of these unconstitutional changes occured in 1954 in reaction to the red scare, and their continuance of evidence of the infiltration of our government by antidisestablishmentarianist and the beginning of the death of american democracy unless we can systematically and totally remove the antidisestablishmentarianists from our government and from all influence upon our government.


The Current Administration is the single worst administration when it comes to being antidisestablishmentarianistic - they are all fundamentalist christian apocolyptic postmillenialists who want nothing more than money and power.  They have blatantly and repeatedly violated the constitution - they seem to enjoy using it as toilet paper.  Now they are announcing vague, unconfirmed threats to the elections in november from Al Qaeda, at best that is an attempt to manipulate the elections, at worst (and i have grown to expect the worst-case-scenario as the norm from bush) it's a prelude to "postponing" the election due to security threats.



Call me a tinfoilhat-wearing crazy for the last part if you want to, but we will be in a world of hurt if i am right!