[karajorma]

Originally posted by Liberator
Basically, the 1st Amendment prevents the Feds from messing with religion, not the other way around.

A rather silly arguement. As soon as one religion started messing with the Feds there would be a knock on effect of the Feds messing with other religions.

Originally posted by Liberator
Don't misunderstand, I firmly believe that a government MUST be secular.  But religion shouldn't be used as a test for anything.  When it comes to making policy decisions or judgements, religion should as much a non-issue as race should be.  At the same time though, when a leader(such as the President) speaks about how he prays for guidance, you shouldn't berate him for what you perceive to be a  weakness.

So in that case you're for allowing gay marriages? After all the only arguement against them is a religious one.

[Kazan]

if Bush prayed and kept his religion out of our government I wouldn't care

it's my not "Hatred of religion" - it's the facts jack

A great many of the founding fathers were deists, some [very famous ones] were atheists  -- they all recognized that the state and religion should not mix

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Rictor
http://csmonitor.com/2004/0707/p15s01-lire.html

Hey! That's Ray in that picture! And they quote Malcom, too. Too funny! Reading an article referenced from HLP about people I know.

Originally posted by Bobboau
they think it's there job to fufill the -proficy or something, that they arn't forceing God's hand, but that god wants them to do it. and from what I recall, they are all in this opiate haze of how wonderful the end of the world is gona be, there all gona disapear off of the face of the earth and all the heathens are gona get burned to ash.. or something, and then they get to come back and play in the ashes... or something... . I heard Pat Roberts (I think) saying that the glorius end times are at hand, that was a few years ago. these folks do truely beleive this crap, and it is worriing how much influence they seem to have, fortunately I think the polititions are just useing these people to get there vote block.

Actually, the "Fun-Filled End Times" is a widespread misunderstanding among Christians. First of all, Jesus states quite clearly that the rapture will come after the tribulation, not before. Secondly, if you want to read about wrath and destruction and death, read Revelations. When Jesus comes back, it ain't gonna be pretty.

Originally posted by Rictor
Also worthy to note is that these views, by Christian Zionists, are not even accepted by most Israelis. Its easy to talk about the End Times when you don't have bombs going off in your neighborhood. When even the people for who's benefit you are allegedly working are against you, that says a little something doesn't it? I think Sandie can back this up. Without ackowledging that Palestiians have a right to homeland, free from Israeli occupation, there can be no peace. that much is clear. But when these guys are in favour of Greater Israel, based on Bible prophecy, and when they have the amount of influecne that they do, the whole peace process goes right out the window.

The Palestinians have every right to a homeland, free of Israeli occupation. Just not on Israeli soil.

But unfortunately, I truly do not think that even the Palestinians getting 101% of what they want will bring peace. I don't think that a lasting peace between the Jews and the Muslims is humanly possible.

Originally posted by Gank
Wheres Sandwich for this one? Nice to get a Christian Zionist living in Jerusalem's view on this.

I know both Ray Sanders and Malcom Hedding personally - they're both great examples of Christian Zionists. I'm what I guess you'd call a Messianic Jew, which - belief-wise - amounts to the same exact thing. The only difference is that I have Jewish ancestry - whoop-dee-doo.

[Ace]

You know, what would be funny is if all of this was, true but not in a manner that was recognizable by the fundies.

Like say... the rapture is actually a bunch of people sick and tired of earth and they decide to leave the planet.

[Flipside]

Hmmmm... I'd sign for that

[mrduckman]

Perhaps a reminder should suffice. After all, without Abraham and Agar (or Hagar, whatever is written) there wouldn't have been an Ishmael

Christian Zionists.. Sounds to me that some Christians want to return to Israel? If so, I hope it doesn't start another war. The last thing we need is that the christians want to retake "Jesus' homeland"

As for the state-church separation, it is obvious why they should be separate. The bible is no longer the book you look for advice as it does not give you an accurate information on anything. It was a guide, yes. But is not updated.

Besides all that, does anyone know how the countdown goes?

[jdjtcagle]

Did someone say countdown? http://www.exodus2006.com/Clock.htm

[Gank]

Originally posted by Flipside
Gank!! Arrrrrgh! Death by MIDI!

Sorry, never noticed, speakers are bust.

Originally posted by Sandwich
The Palestinians have every right to a homeland, free of Israeli occupation. Just not on Israeli soil.

LOL, 60 years ago the jews had less right to a homeland, and no right to one on Palestinian soil. It amazes me how fundamental christians can completely ignore the beliefs they claim to uphold when it suits them.

Originally posted by Ace
You know, what would be funny is if all of this was, true but not in a manner that was recognizable by the fundies.

Like say if the palestinians were Gods chosen people?

[mrduckman]

Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Did someone say countdown? http://www.exodus2006.com/Clock.htm

9th of Ab 5766???!!! Fascinating. That date never had occured to me ...

[Rictor]

Sandwich, let me ask you this. You say that the Palestinians have the right to a homeland, and I'm glad you think think, but the question then is, what is Israeli land?

If we go by what was actually bought by Israel prior to 1948, then that is about 4% of modern-day Israel, if I remember correctly.

What I want to know is by what authority Israel holds the land it is currently on. Please don't misinterpret this as an attack on the concept of a Jewish homeland, I believe that Israel has a right to exist, but the question is where and how. As far as I know, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, most of the land currenty held by Israel was simply given to it by the United Nations in 1948. However, the UN does not have the authority to take assests (land, money, property etc) from Group A, in this case the Palestinian inhabitants, to give it to Group B, Jewish Zionists. Stealing from Peter to give to Paul, so to speak.

edit: Why do you think that there can never be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. After 1500 years of constant, bloody war, the various European nations are getting along just fine with another. 20 years ago, how many people thought the Cold War could end peacefully? All conflicts come to and end, and hopefully, in a peaceful manner. I think that the odds of a conflict, any conflict, coming to a peaceful resolution are greater now then they ever were. Total war, the kind that would be required to wipe out your opponents, is just less acceptable than before. And long periods of subjugation are also growing very unpopular.

I think that saying never is just wrong. There is no logical reason why peace is not attainable. Its a pretty defeatist attitude, dont you think?

[jdjtcagle]

It's what the Bible Code says, enteresting... But most likely crap, they can't predict the future

[Liberator]

You know, the only fair way to distribute the Holy Land is to declare it No Man's Land and not let anybody live there.  Just redistrict the whole area and five the Israelis a place and give the Palestinians a place, just outside what is considered the "Holy Land" and only allow people in for worship or educational/archaeolgical purposes and do not allow weapons of any kind save those of the "guards" which should be a multinational force established outside of national lines, they would no longer be American or French or Iraqi or whatever the hell else for the extent of their service in guarding the Holy Land.  Also, no one should be allowed in at night and any found is contravention of the posted(in all applicable languages as large as possible at every check point) rules will be subject to arrest and immediate ejection and banishment from the Holy Land.

That is the only fair way.

[Rictor]

I don't necessarily think that you have to declare the whole area off limits for inhabitants, nor do I think that anyone has the authority to do so. But I do agree that certain disputed places, such as Jerusalem, should be declared international areas, which means that they are not the sole posession of any one nation. It seems to me the best way to solve the conflict. Or, if both sides agree, parition the land (reffering specifically to Jerusalem, but also in general) into national sections.

[Ace]

In a sense I agree with Liberator on this. But I'd also make an extention to include territories such as Tibet (being the holy land of the Bhuddist faith) as neutral areas for educational/pilgrimmage/archaeoligcal purposes.

[Rictor]

Ace: I don't anyone is actually trying to claim Tibet except the people who have lived there for like ever. China just invaded becasue they were afraid the deeply religious beliefs might destablizie Communism. China isn't saying "this is our Holy Land", they doing it for purely political means, and since its as clear as day that their occupation doesn't have a shred of legitimacy, I'm in favour of just kicking them out. But its not like anyone is really willing to stand up to China, even if they could, which few countries can.

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Rictor
What I want to know is by what authority Israel holds the land it is currently on. Please don't misinterpret this as an attack on the concept of a Jewish homeland, I believe that Israel has a right to exist, but the question is where and how. As far as I know, and someone will correct me if I'm wrong, most of the land currenty held by Israel was simply given to it by the United Nations in 1948. However, the UN does not have the authority to take assests (land, money, property etc) from Group A, in this case the Palestinian inhabitants, to give it to Group B, Jewish Zionists. Stealing from Peter to give to Paul, so to speak.

IIRC of inhabitants on the land left when the Jews started going back. Don't quote me on that, because I really don't know for sure.


*waits for sand's reply*

[Sandwich]

This site seems to be an unbiased storehouse of information, perhaps it will answer your questions about the history of the area:

Palestine Facts

Originally posted by Rictor
Why do you think that there can never be peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

I didn't say that, did I? I said:

[q]I don't think that a lasting peace between the Jews and the Muslims is humanly possible.[/q]

This is completely connected with my faith, and the Biblical statements concerning the two people groups. They have yet to be proven wrong.

Now, Jews !== Israelis, and Palestinians !== Muslims. Yes, those associations represent majorities, but let's be as accurate as we can be (without being anal about it ).

Bottom line, and this must be understood, is that Israel - as the Jewish State - existing on the same territory the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah held 3000+ years ago, holding off attack after attack by the Muslim Jihad-wagers surrounding her, is an affront to Allah and to Islam. We are an offense by merely existing; ala "The God of Israel is stronger than the God of Islam." Make no mistake - this conflict cannot be explained merely politically. It is deeply rooted in religion.

Jews and Arabs have lived together peacefully many times in the past, and continue to do so today - believe it or not. I was just at an Arab / Bedouin tent all afternoon, eating and playing a board game with friends.

But there will always be a conflict between Islam and Judaism (and, dare I say it, Christianity). Heck, I'll even toss in a bit of Biblical prophecy in here to stir things up. According to the book of Revelations (and Daniel, IIRC), there will be 3.5 years of peace in the middle east, brought on by the anti-christ. But that's all it will last. Now, I don't expect any of you to agree or believe this, but we shall see what the future holds.

[Bobboau]

hey, wasn't there about three and a half years of relitive calm thanks the Clinton...

AHHH!!! tEh eND TImEzZZZ aRE UpoN uZ!!!! oH teH GNoEwZ!11!!11

[Gank]

Originally posted by Sandwich
This site seems to be an unbiased storehouse of information, perhaps it will answer your questions about the history of the area:
Palestine Facts

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq.php

Palestine Facts is a project of the Jewish Internet Association.

http://www.jewishinternetassociation.org/
Unbiased alright Do you ever check your facts before you post?

Originally posted by Sandwich
Bottom line, and this must be understood, is that Israel - as the Jewish State - existing on the same territory the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah held 3000+ years ago, holding off attack after attack by the Muslim Jihad-wagers surrounding her, is an affront to Allah and to Islam. We are an offense by merely existing; ala "The God of Israel is stronger than the God of Islam." Make no mistake - this conflict cannot be explained merely politically. It is deeply rooted in religion.

Incorrect, Muslims are not concerned that your god is stronger than theres, because most jews, christians and muslims accept that they all worship the same God, they are pissed because you are an outsider to the region who is coming in and stealing land. You can put whatever religious spin on it suits your beliefs, but that is what the conflict is really about. Btw, Israel has only ever been attacked once by the "jihad wagers", all other times the wars were started by Israel and took place on her neighbours territory, including the 1948 war.

Originally posted by Sandwich
But there will always be a conflict between Islam and Judaism (and, dare I say it, Christianity). Heck, I'll even toss in a bit of Biblical prophecy in here to stir things up. According to the book of Revelations (and Daniel, IIRC), there will be 3.5 years of peace in the middle east, brought on by the anti-christ. But that's all it will last. Now, I don't expect any of you to agree or believe this, but we shall see what the future holds.

Believe it or not, I hold great store in prophesies, I dont pass much heed of other peoples interpretations of them. Too much of evangilical preaching on them is coloured by racism and bigotry, for example the theory that Gog and Magog represent Russia or the ten horned beast represents the EU, especially considering that beast has 25 horns now. One thing I'd like to get your opinion on though is the jews who are not jews, but a synagogue of satan. Who do you think this is referring too?

[vyper]

So what we need is a man who knows how to abuse presidential power properly back in the whitehouse? I mean... bomb iraq, or get a blowjob...