[.::Tin Can::.]

The point is the dumber populace has more opinion than the smarter ones.

[jdjtcagle]

Excactly

[Rictor]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Rictor, despite our past, lets look at it in this frame:

Do we really have a reason to nuke Korea?

No, not at all...

Does Korea have a reason to nuke us?

You bet ya...

Its like saying "Osama, since your country hasnt really done anything bad in the past, I guess I'll give you these nuclear weapons!

What do you think would happen?

Rictor, your argument is strictly built on the bad things in the past. Its not about whats happened, its about intent. What do you PLAN to use those nukes for?

1) I think the positions are exactly the reverse. The US has threatened, and is actively developing mini-nukes. But I think the likelyhood of *any* country, no matter how much you mistrust them, firing nukes, is minimal. If Bush thinks thats the world is going to end any minute now, and Rapture is just around the corner, which he does, than whats a few nukes here and there?

2) As I said, the point is moot, since no one has the right to enforce a double standard. If anyone can have WMD, everyone can have them. You may not like it, but its only fair.

3) Quit being so paranoid. Jesus, if every country reacted to agression the way America reacted, you'de have a third of the world knocking on your door. I mean, you don't see Cuba going all ape****, and they have plenty of reason to be pissed at the US.

No offence, but quit your whining. If you want to look at this analytically, on 9/11 America got back 1/1000th of what it inflicted on various peoples over the years. You are not the all important center of the universe, your tragedy is no greater than any of the tragedies for which US foreign policy has been responsible, and continues to be responsbile.

[jdjtcagle]

Rictor please read my post
I'm interested in your comments

[.::Tin Can::.]

Rictor, you opts for the entirely equal entirely everyone gets what everyone else has world. This means:

"Well if they get it, we get it too!"

No, this isnt how it works.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
I worship Australians, just so you know.

Yes, the intelligence level of the "Average American" seem to have declined in the last 50 years. You know what I think took the cake? Social reconstruction. We did NOT need that. We used it to seperate the rich from the poor and define class. Social reconstruction just about did it for us.

But, I know that there is NO way all of us would say "Nuke the bastards!" In fact, we have so many damn liberals we would actually argue about how we should respect that country and think about their feelings and how they feel about getting nuked!

You see, back in the day, it wasnt about "Freedom" and "Feelings", it was about morals, decency, what was right and wrong, and where you drew the line. You cross the line, you get punished. There was no sidetrack out of punishment through misinterpretation.

If every American finished High School, EVERY one who was old enough had gone and finished high school, you would see an increase in intelligence almost significantly.

Pray tell, where was that line that could not be crossed? For ****s sake, no country has ever directly meddled in US affairs the way the US meddled in foreign affairs. Indirectly too.

So tell me, what was the line?

"Do not challenge our domincance" seem like a plaubile one. If the line was, as I assume you think "Don't meddle in our affairs", then you yourselves crossed it about a hundred times. But I guess it doesn't matter when the other guy gets it, only America is important.

For my money, the public is FAR more aware than it was 50 years ago. The level of social consciousness is not even comparable anyomore. For all those without hope, I say you have pletny to be hopeful about. There is an ever growing segment of the US population which is quite aware of the world political situtation, and not just polititcal, economic too. There is an access to information like never before. With the Cold War over, even old allies no longer feel obliged to tote the party line. Sure, the flag-waving, CNN watching population still outnumbers this politically-conscious chunk of the population, but one is growing and the other is shrinking.

[.::Tin Can::.]

When I say "The Line" i mean a decent 100 years ago. Not 50. It was back when moral standards were still at a very good present.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Rictor, you opts for the entirely equal entirely everyone gets what everyone else has world. This means:

"Well if they get it, we get it too!"

No, this isnt how it works.

I see. All animals (people, nations, whatever) are equal, but some are more equal than others (Animal Farm). Its funny how whenever there is inequality, America always gets the sweet end of that deal. Quite a coincidence, no?

If we can't adhere even to the prinicpal of equality, than what use is there is talking about law, human rights, freedom and so on. Kind of like how blacks were equal, but not quite so equal, so they had to sit at the back of the bus. Well, this persists today, only with nations. The South (not literally, the South means the poor, Third World nations, whereas the North means the industrial, First World nations) is sitting at the back of the bus, and yet you insist on talking about justice.

Originally posted by jdjtcagle


But really that's the effect you get in today's society...
BTW, its IMHO

The American influence today is clear that drugs are not bad, I'll live my life irresposibly, ect...

The most music is angry and confused and what people doesn't understand that it CAN have an ifluence, we are a gullable people...

Plus, America is so big...
And there confusion of what is "real" and what is "not
What is "right" and what is "wrong"
Cost dearly when they don't care anymore, "Kill other people, it's not affecting me in any way!"

I don't think you ought to be so pessimistic. In my humble opinion, never has the world been so well informed and politically conscious as it is today. I understand where you're coming from, you feel disheartened because critical debate and dissenting voices is getting almost no media attention. But you should realize, thats only in the US, and other Western Nations. Even European media is vastly more critical than most US media outlets. And the further you get from the First World, the louder and more widespear the dissent gets. Even East Europe, which is relatively well off, has such coverage that is rarely seen in the US. Even more so if you read (which due to language barriers, you understandably don't, neither do I) South American or Asian media.

This image of the dumb, flag-waving, slogan shouting citizen is not as true as you might imagine. The US has a huge anti-war, global justice (loosely defined as anti-globalization, pro-environment, anti-corporate) contingent, and its only bigger and stronger once you step outside the US.

So, don't loose hope, if ever there was a time for optimism, that is now. Its more widespread than you can imagine.

[jdjtcagle]

Hmmmm...
I hope your right Rictor, I realy hope you are

But would you agree that we don't "really" have a choice  in the way our government is ran?

I mean, when our Presidents is chosen, we have no say in what they do and who they hate, and the media "can" make a majority people believe what they want you to believe

Democracy, we have little that we can control and the things we can our constantly chosen by people who don't know what they want...

[.::Tin Can::.]

Or who are too stupid to figure out what they want.

And Rictor, its not about ONLY America getting the long end of the stick. When you are dealing with something like nuclear weapons, you dont just hand them out like candy.

"Well since America has such crappy history, I deem all of you candidates for a nuke!"

Yes, lets have a session where we fork out nukes to every country in the world. They all get one. Not a lot, but at least one. We can give em to Saudi Arabia, Brazil, South Africa, Spain, and lets not forget a large, HEALTHY dose of a contribution of 20 more ICBM warheads to North Korea. What harm could they POSSIBLY do?

Let me ask you something, if I may. If you lived in England, Italy, Spain, Germany, Egypt, Mexico, whatever country like that, whatever. Are you afraid of America attacking you? Knocking on your door with ICBM warheads? Do you think we would fire a nuke at Europe, Africa, whatever?

Do you realise what America has to LOOSE if we shoot off a nuke? What does North Korea have to loose? You seem to lack an understanding of what is going on NOW. Im sure what has happened 60 years ago from there, not to mention a change in society, presidents, enemies, etc, have had quite an impact on todays economics. Yep, World War II's bomb drops make us hate everyone and want to invade every country in the world with nukes.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Or who are too stupid to figure out what they want.

And Rictor, its not about ONLY America getting the long end of the stick. When you are dealing with something like nuclear weapons, you dont just hand them out like candy.

"Well since America has such crappy history, I deem all of you candidates for a nuke!"

Yes, lets have a session where we fork out nukes to every country in the world. They all get one. Not a lot, but at least one. We can give em to Saudi Arabia, Brazil, South Africa, Spain, and lets not forget a large, HEALTHY dose of a contribution of 20 more ICBM warheads to North Korea. What harm could they POSSIBLY do?

Let me ask you something, if I may. If you lived in England, Italy, Spain, Germany, Egypt, Mexico, whatever country like that, whatever. Are you afraid of America attacking you? Knocking on your door with ICBM warheads? Do you think we would fire a nuke at Europe, Africa, whatever?

Do you realise what America has to LOOSE if we shoot off a nuke? What does North Korea have to loose? You seem to lack an understanding of what is going on NOW. Im sure what has happened 60 years ago from there, not to mention a change in society, presidents, enemies, etc, have had quite an impact on todays economics. Yep, World War II's bomb drops make us hate everyone and want to invade every country in the world with nukes.

Well, currently I live in Canada, an no, I'm not afraid of a US attack. Not unless they want the White House torched again :devil: :devil:

But face facts, most of the world does NOT live in any of the countries you mentioned, first world nations and US allies. Most of the world lives is poor, defenceless countries, which are at the US's mercy. For example, Serbia. Got bombed, for two and a half months it did. Do I fear a US attack? No, personally I don't, but most of the world does. Or if not a direct attack, than at least political and economic meddling which can be just a lethal.

As I said, I am an advocate of nuclear disarmament. But I believe that it is unfair to restrict weapons development in other countries when you yourselves posses such weapons. Any decision the Security Council reaches regarding such measures is worthless because they all posses nukes. Or do you think thats just a coincidence, that all the permanent Security Council nations are nuclear powers? Its serves as a wonderful detterant. Do you think the US would have invaded Iraq if it has nukes? (well, they did claim at the time that it dd have nukes, but that was BS they knew it.)

I am very much against nuclear proliferation, but I don't see how I have a right, or anyone else for that matter, to tell a sovereign nation what to do. Does the UN have the authority to order the US to get rid of its nukes? Answer me that.

And while I may look unkindly on the US record since WW2, don't think that I am ignoring the situation now. For my money its not much different. I mean, you have a US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, a NATO (but lets be clear, the initiative was US-German) force occupying Kosovo and Bosnia, an American puppet sitting in Georgia, a US embargo against Cuba which is one of the worst atrocities in the region, US backed death-squads in Columbia, US support for Israel in the Occupied Territories, a US sponsored coup in Haiti, an attempt at one in Venezuela (and maybe they will yet suscceed, we'll see). There is probably more, I can't remember. Thats all now, I mean in the past year or two, or ongoing.

If you ask me who I trust with nukes, my answer is probablt Sweden and Holland and thats about it. Not literally, but you get the point. I'm not disagreeing that the North Korean leadership is brutal and repressive, but they're not crazy. You throw the word madman around too much. Stalin was madman, Saddam was madman, Kim Jong Il is a madman. They may be evil, but they're not stupid. Not stupid enough to launch nukes. Iran wouldn't either, they know it means the end of them.

All I'm saying is, no, I don't trust North Korea with WMD, but I don't really trust anyone with them, Especially now that Bush is developing mini-nukes, which are designed to be used. The big bombs, the ICBMs, they were designed not to be used, but the new mini nukes are actually made to be used.

Whats the problem with disarming? I mean, if you claim you're never going to use them anyway, and the Cold War is over, whats the use? Bush actually backed out of some Non-Proliferation treaty signed years ago, because he wanted to develop the mini nukes. And, whats more, he's not letting inspectors into US nuclear weapons facilties. I mean, don't you see the irony? Iraq let inspectors in, and they got attacked, but meanwhile, the US is telling Iran and North Korea to let in inspectors while they themselves do not.

I think that the best way is peaceful re-integration between the Nort and the South. I mean, they're going to loosen up a little, because they know Communism is done for. Thats the same thing China is doing, they're slowly releaasing the grip on their people. Now, it not ideal, but its a lot better than could be achieved through force.

[Tiara]

If you ask me who I trust with nukes, my answer is probablt Sweden and Holland and thats about it.

Aww, you'd give us nukes? We'd bomb people just to see the pretty flash when we're all high and stuff.

"Dude, that big red button is not an ashtray..."

[jdjtcagle]

[Rictor]

Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Hmmmm...
I hope your right Rictor, I realy hope you are

But would you agree that we don't "really" have a choice  in the way our government is ran?

I mean, when our Presidents is chosen, we have no say in what they do and who they hate, and the media "can" make a majority people believe what they want you to believe

Democracy, we have little that we can control and the things we can our constantly chosen by people who don't know what they want...

Hey, I indulge in a little pessimism now and then, and sure, why not, but the more you learn about history, the more you have an appreciation for just how free are. When you talk about how the US doesn't have a free media and all that, remember, in of places, its much worse. We are living in perhaps the period in history which is characterized by the greatest freedom, of thought, of press, os asscosiation and so on. Until very recently, most of the world was either a monarchy or a theocracy, or somewhere in between.  We complain about corporate media and all that because, quite frankly, we're used to having it good, veryy good. Can you imagine the amount of press freedom in say, ancient Rome or feudal Japan?

Yeah, its great to work to make the system even better, in more free , but I don't think you should take it too hard, because if new ideas and dissenting voices could smask through the barriers imposed on it throughout most of history, what we have now is a cake-walk compared to that. Give it a few years, and you'll see what I mean.

The media may be moving on to more subtle ways of manipulation, but the people are moving faster. And journalistic integrity is not completely gone. Even the Uk media, the closest US ally, is vastly critical of Bush and Blair. Check out the websites for the Independent, Guardian or Observer, and you will see that there is still a fair bit a moral decency in the media.

Call me an optimist, but I see a bright future ahead. How long it will take to get here, and how hard it will be, thats unknown, but its coming, and at this point, there's nothing that can stop it. Becuase the more people know, the harder it is to fool them, and they know more now than ever before.

edit: whats your email addy, I've got something to send you, its a .pdf, but your email isn't in your profile.

[neo_hermes]

scuse me but if i where president i would have  looked at the internet and if there was a switch that cut off all the connections to the states i would have tossed it and began a new age of isolationism. with that in affect the only way i could be contacted by foreigners would be by phone, or by their ambassadors. then at the end of my term as president i'd switch it on, hopefully i would have fixed the education and economy by then...if you consider me a dictator while i'm in office so be it...


while at the end of my term: whatever hotspots of the future if i had the Big Red Button i would press it twice...and whatever you say i don't give a rats ass about it...It will either Glow Green or will just be a crater when i'm through with it. so it has been written so will it be done...

-President of the Demonic Lands of Hermecles-NeoHermes (Bringer of Death)

p.s. oh and sry for bringing up an old post that looked like it wanted to be forgotten!!

[Genryu]

Originally posted by Tiara

Aww, you'd give us nukes? We'd bomb people just to see the pretty flash when we're all high and stuff.

"Dude, that big red button is not an ashtray..."

If you weren't already married, I think I'd move to your country and propose to you

[Janos]

Originally posted by neo_hermes
scuse me but if i where president i would have  looked at the internet and if there was a switch that cut off all the connections to the states i would have tossed it and began a new age of isolationism.  

i heard there's porn in this internet confirm/deny

[jdjtcagle]

Originally posted by Rictor



edit: whats your email addy, I've got something to send you, its a .pdf, but your email isn't in your profile.

Me? I thought it was, anyway it's [email protected]

[.::Tin Can::.]

*sells your email to spam companies*

[jdjtcagle]

Go ahead and try to get pass my defences!