[Tepa]

seems like in multiplay Pegasus stealth is NOT an stealth anymore AIs are capable to lock aspect missiles on players like on normal ship
and probatly AI v AI stealths can do same lock aspect's aswell
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this was reported in mantis aswell sometime ago

[Cetanu]

I confirm that observation

[Moonsword]

The Pegasus is never stealthed unless it's done in FRED.

This isn't a case of the ship not working properly in multiplayer.  It's a case of the missions (whatever they may be) not being set up for stealth fighters.

[Cetanu]

*speechless... checking if I woke up in a different reality and didn't notice*

[Solatar]

doesn't the Pegasus have a $Stealth:  something or other?

[Trivial Psychic]

It needs a "ship-stealthy" sexp to activate the effect for any mission where its used.

[CP5670]

No, it works fine without that ($Stealth makes it completely invisible on radar, at least in the original version). Anyway, I tested this out and it seems that the AIs ignore stealth ships until they fire, after which they can attack them for the rest of the mission. I can't remember how it used to be originally, though.

[Svizel]

Originally posted by Moonsword
The Pegasus is never stealthed unless it's done in FRED.

This isn't a case of the ship not working properly in multiplayer.  It's a case of the missions (whatever they may be) not being set up for stealth fighters.

Whatever dimansion of existance you are from, in this dimension (where all multiplayer pilots are from...) the stealth fighters were working as STEALTH fighters without any moddification in FRED. At least they used to in original FreeSpace2 before SCP started to play with AI and so on...

Sorry but if the same mission IS working just perfect in original FreeSpace2 and IS NOT working on SCP this is the SCP issue, not the mission issue... Unless you plan not to make SCP fuly backwards compatibile with original FreeSpace2 missions...

[Tepa]

CP u tryed VA2 with 8 pegasi
just re verified that flyed nicely formed up and didnt took long until thoths started to fire aspectlock missiles and yes they are able to pick stealth only IF u flyed certain cone area tro theyr nose and close enough to smell pilot inside or firing weapons near em but still they were never able to lock&fire harpoons,torns or start trackin ya from over 2k range
--------------
forgot in team mission awacs2 we tested it also simply blow up each others awac's it did same thing+ my opposite side took herc2 and that herc2 turned as stealth no radar bliip after awacs gone but AIs were able spam aspects to both of us

[Inquisitor]

If it works in vanilla fs, and doesn't work in SCP, it's likely a bug.

Keep the "alternative reality comments" civil please. If it's a bug, plop it in mantis. If one of the other SCP guys (note the little green icon next to my name) can verify or explain, I don't recall intentionally breaking stealth.

It's possible, I just don't recall it and can't think of a reason for it. But I also can't tell you what the original behavior was in multiplayer. I died too frequently to notice

Is it like this in all the builds? 3.6 and later? Just the FSO builds? Is it in both singleplayer and multi? Or just multi? Not sure reading that description.

Try to be nice to one another

[Cetanu]

Well, if someone tells me that stealth fighters never were stealth before without special treatment, I sure feel in the wrong reality... and the comments up there are far from any hostility

I think the Stealth is just one of the problems noticeable in all the missions since SCP changed values and AI behaviour... I checked them lately and verified other players observations with my own:

So... now my 2Cents if you care or not:

- Any fighter below a heavy bombers feels like flying a paperplane, anything you ramm is deadlier then ever

- AI got better primary aiming in SCP - 1-2 hits you are destroyed, same goes for all kind of weapons - even flak is more deadly then ever (maybe cause you really sit in a paperplane)

- AI got better evading skills - bombers even won't do a normal bomb run - they stay at a safe distance and fire bombs at max range only - maybe that tactic even works since in SCP FS2 capship beams won't attack bombs/bombers anymore

- Missiles either work are are completely useless - while AI kills me with 2 Harps almost every time, I waste 8 on one Seraphis and hopefully 2 of them do some damage (my missiles hit in that case - I don't count all the evaded)

- Beams counting for the Kill % makes bombing pretty useless with capship-beams around  - may be realistic and I know it got added cause of fighter-beams in the SCP code, but since its game and 5 years all created mission with this in mind I think it should be fun still to play older missions - if I bomb something and a capship-beam just kills my target (and AI kills still don't count for players in the same team) or simple gets more % then me, why do I play a bomber at all if I can't get a kill or points?

- Shockwaves are more deadly then ever, don't know for sure why maybe the paperplane effect again - some mission are auto-lost 90% all times because of that - example: Knife Fight (TS-Bandit_m01)

- Part of the AI changes seem to be reaction times too - example: TDIC (cet_m06) is auto-lost because AI fires seconds AFTER the missions starts even when AT missionstart all hostiles change to friendly team - worked fine that way in vanilla, doesn't in SCP

This list is not complete but something to work with...

These changes here and there, some ment as bug fixes, some ment as improvements - ALL of them completly remove any balance that game once had - that isn't only noticeable in my beloved Coops, TvTs are unbalanced too

How to solve it?

Please, make any of the SCP changes to AI behaviour and maybe physics an option checkbox in Fred2: so, if any mission was created for vanilla FS2 still uses the old AI routines and standard physics and any new mission created for the SCP that should have all these improvements simply would have another value/flag added

Plz, don't tell me "If you don't like the changes, don't use SCP" - it's not just ME noticing that something is completly wrong with the multiplayer part, I'm just the one telling you the truth...

In singleplayer I may be able to choose whatever build I want, even Vanilla FS2 - in multiplayer I need compatible clients with the same values and rules - and some balance, at best the balance FS2 had for the last 5 years...

Again I have no problem with some of the improvements - as long they are not auto-activated and don't overrule any former balance a mission was built for...

Thx, now rip me apart if you feel the need for!

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Cetanu
I think the Stealth is just one of the problems noticeable in all the missions since SCP changed values and AI behaviour

[snip]

We have a long-standing policy of not changing the AI because it tends to royally screw everything up.  Some AI changes have slipped through, but we're trying to clean them up.  If you notice any difference, by all means please let us know (preferably on Mantis, with a full bug report).

in SCP FS2 capship beams won't attack bombs/bombers anymore

That's only for capship beams, not fighter beams, and it's supposed to be activated only by a flag.

- Beams counting for the Kill % makes bombing pretty useless with capship-beams around  - may be realistic and I know it got added cause of fighter-beams in the SCP code

Mantis this.  We should make beams only count towards the kill if they're fighter beams (since they're a new feature) and otherwise keep the old behavior.

This list is not complete but something to work with...

Some of these I've noticed, and some I haven't, but regardless, please post them in Mantis with screenshots and full descriptions.

Please, make any of the SCP changes to AI behaviour and maybe physics an option checkbox in Fred2: so, if any mission was created for vanilla FS2 still uses the old AI routines and standard physics and any new mission created for the SCP that should have all these improvements simply would have another value/flag added

That's our policy... unfortunately, not everybody is careful about sticking to it.  When we discover that someone has changed stuff without making it optional, we make every effort to fix it.

Plz, don't tell me "If you don't like the changes, don't use SCP"

Who said this, and when?  This is not something I want the staff saying.

- it's not just ME noticing that something is completly wrong with the multiplayer part, I'm just the one telling you the truth...

If you notice something wrong, by all means please tell us and don't be intimidated if someone brushes you off.  If that happens, let me know and I'll set them straight.

Summary: if you notice anything wrong with the SCP, don't stew in silence... please let us know.

[Cetanu]

If you don't like the changes, don't use SCP - was the sum of most replies I got when I asked for the old render engine... I thought I best sort this out here where it has nothing to do with my graphic card

It's the 2nd thread where I get accused of hostility - sure, getting praise for cool new features sounds a lot more charming then annoying postings of bugs that need fixing... I don't see a way to write any more softer or report odd FS2 behaviour with sugar on top

Mmm, I really would like to, but how should I give a screenshot of something like the feeling of piloting a paperplane? I just can compare flying in vanilla and SCP FS2 - it feels different so it most certainly is - the events log page in FS2 only shows the % of who kills what not HOW that happend - its no render engine glitch I can document with a screenshot

another point I forgot on the list:

- Trebuchets:
In Vanilla FS2 AI never (this is a fact - compared to the never of the Stealths ) used them, some of the missions are unwinable now because AI trebs away anything with doubled missiles too... example: Shivan Bombers in the multiversion of Exodus - their Trebs now waste the ships you have to protect before you are able to do anything

The problem here is that by default all Shivan bombers in FS2 have Trebuchets in their missile bays when selected in Fred2 - so this new usage of previously unused missiles affects all missions with default loadouts (including conversions of Volitions)

As for Mantis... well, maybe I get used to it, right now I feel better doing a list here

I heared some of the bugs got already reported as fixed on Mantis while they actually aren't in the newer builds - example: 01082004_fs2_open_r ... still only the first (in a row) played multiplayer mission saves if you don't leave the games area back to the hangar after each

I guess some fixes are only in one build and then dont get included into the code for the next...

[StratComm]

The trebs needs to be fixed in the missions, not the code.  You said it yourself, AI never used them before.  Validating an updated co-op shouldn't be too hard, but the Treb fix was a legitimate bug in the Volition code IIRC.  It should be possible to edit the mission so that those bombers have nothing in their bays, if the trebs are a problem (I don't know how FSO would react to nothing in an AI missle bay, but judging by the old pilot file errors it should work perfectly).

It's not that this doesn't need to be corrected, it does.  But pinning the problem on the SCP changes isn't necessarily the only or best option.  The whole project fails without community input, and this is something that the community can certainly help with.

As for some bugfixes getting fixed but dissapearing in the next build, that may be a development lag.  Most builds are posted for testing before the new code gets committed, but the best option regardless is to reopen/resubmit the bug.

[Moonsword]

EDIT: I continued doing some research after posting this, and found the $stealth tag that someone mentioned.  It's a line in the entry itself, and very hard to spot.  I missed it on prior look-throughs of the table, and I apologize for those statements.  They were based on an incomplete grasp of the situation, and I was in error.  That does not, however, call for someone to be ridiculed.  Your statements were needlessly hostile and offensive, and did not contribue meaningfully to the discussion.

I have also done some checking, and it seems that I used a different SEXP than I thought to hide something in a mission.  My apologies, I should have double-checked on that as well.

[kv1at3485]

The AI never used Trebuchets before?  Wow, I never realized this.  Glad you guys fixed it though.

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by Moonsword
I am not an idiot, nor a fool, and I do not appreciate being called such.  I double-checked before I said that.

no one called you that... but thanks for my next hostile

I never checked the stealth function in the code - I simply played this game since it came out, I created missions with Stealth fighters in them, I tested these missions hundreds of times, I played lots of TvTs with Stealths, etc. so I know for sure how Stealths like the Pegasus and the Ptah worked in vanilla FS2

Now you posted they never were Stealths before without an extra check in Fred2... no problem, if more people then you would have signed this, I certainly woke up in the wrong reality today since I played 5 years with a different experience... no hostility here, unless you want to read between the lines by force - don't wear shoes that don't fit!

That's all what led to my astonished reply. Maybe this lengthy version would have been better? Anyway, in my first reply I was really speechless.

But that all distracts from the other SCP problems I mentioned...

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by StratComm
It's not that this doesn't need to be corrected, it does.  But pinning the problem on the SCP changes isn't necessarily the only or best option.

True. Maybe most of the SCP changes could be worked around some way or the other in Fred2 alone, but I thought the primary goal was to keep before-the-SCP missions working still correctly and all after-the-SCP to have the fixes and improvements. The earlier missions worked fine in vanilla FS2 for what they were created...

Changing 5 single missions is easy, but changing all missions of the last 5 years is not.

[StratComm]

There seems to be a bit of a communications barrier here, and I'm really not sure why.  First off, people really need to understand a few things.  Every change that alters gameplay in FSO has been debated, and when a conflict is apparent with backwards compatability then backwards compatability is, or should have been, enforced.  I'm not a member of the SCP staff, but I have been watching this project since its inception and I can vouch that nothing major has been changed intentionally without serious debate.  Second, nothing for the SCP happens quickly.  At least nothing that someone wants or needs finished.  This is not a professional (meaning paid) development team, and everyone who contributes does it on their own free time.  Report the bug, ask about it from time to time if you deem it critical, but don't expect it to be fixed the next day.  As goober has said repeatedly, every effort is being made to be accomodating to as many interests as possible, but no one can wave a magic wand and fix them all.  This is especially true if no one on the project recognizes that there is a problem, and so reporting anomolies and bugs is invaluable to the development process.

Also, there's a lot of hostility floating around.  There are some bruised egos by the looks of things, but if everyone will look closely none of it is coming from the SCP staff.  Again, they're all trying to be as accomodating as possible.

EDIT:

Originally posted by Cetanu
True. Maybe most of the SCP changes could be worked around some way or the other in Fred2 alone, but I thought the primary goal was to keep before-the-SCP missions working still correctly and all after-the-SCP to have the fixes and improvements. The earlier missions worked fine in vanilla FS2 for what they were created...

Changing 5 single missions is easy, but changing all missions of the last 5 years is not.

The problem is, the Treb bug was/is a real problem in a lot of missions, since mission designers would want that firepower but have no way of assigning it to wingmen (as the fix was originally intended for; this affected the vanilla campaign too as one could load out wingmen with trebs to have them simply not use them) so it almost needs to be retroactive for singleplayer.  The problem is not with the AI using Trebs, it is with the AI using a weapon that was previously treated as an empty bank.  The missions are ASCII files, so it might be as simple as writing a batch file to add in a flag on all legacy missions to disable whatever fix was done for the trebs, if such a flag existed.  But the fix itself really should be left on.  It's just too limiting.  A "classic freespace" mode for old missions would be nice, but I fear that it would be interconnected in far too many changes to simply be added in.

[Moonsword]

Check the edited message, please, and it seemed that someone was implying that I was an idiot, but not you, as you were not the only one saying things like that.  Also, I would like to know why you bothered to respond to my original post, since I edited it 30 minutes before you posted.

Second, Trivial Psychic said the same thing as I did about the SEXPs.  I'm not the only one who was mistaken.

Also, you again misread the way I used that statement: it was not a past tense sentence, but a present tense one.  I said never are, not never were.  I was not saying your memory was incorrect, I was saying that based on what I had seen when checking the information, they weren't unless otherwise specified.  I was incorrect, but I did not know that at the time.  That wasn't an overly clear statement, but it was clearly in present tense.

EDIT: This is directed at Cetanu.