[vyper]

The US lost the day it had to resort to open force, I think that much is obvious. The trick now is if they can figure out how to get out of it.

[MatthewPapa]

Well, I was joking about the chemical weapons btw in case you were wondering. Its just my way of saying there has got to be a better way to clear out a cemetery than shooting it up. HMM, lemme think of a real option... ok, green berets helecopter in, kill the guards and arrest sadre. Surgical strike. Of course i dont know how well that would go over with the Iraqi government or people, but it might be a genuine option for us.

[vyper]

Too many insurgets, surgical strikes only operate on standard military units - this is a mass urban warfare grouping of men.

[MatthewPapa]

Well, if they can pinpoint his location for sure...

[vyper]

And get raped the minute a gun goes off.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
Well, here's an idea: leave Najaf the hell alone. We all know what happened in Fallujah, right?

Sure, its possible to retake the city, but there's gonna be

a) a hell of a lot of dead civilians
b) a hell of a lot of dead insurgents
c) a hell of a lot of property damage, religious and otherwise
d) as a consequence of a, b and c, a hell of a lot of angry Iraqis (and Muslims in general)

Isn't it obvious by now that the country can not be won by force. And that whole hearts and minds deal is about as likely as Elvis comeing back from the dead for another album. And Iraqis are very quickly wising up to the fact that Allawi might not really have their best intentions at heart (his office was recently torched).

Every dead Iraqi bring the US closer to defeat, not victory.

If that's the case then the only solution is, well, genocide.  If you aren't laying on the ground waving a white flag, you get shot, as we can't tell the difference until we're being shot at.

*shrug*

Don't piss and cry if you shoot at armed forces, and they shoot back.  Obviously yonder 'insurgents' don't give a flying crap about the non-combatant population.

[vyper]

It's a two way street.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by MatthewPapa
Well, I was joking about the chemical weapons btw in case you were wondering. Its just my way of saying there has got to be a better way to clear out a cemetery than shooting it up. HMM, lemme think of a real option... ok, green berets helecopter in, kill the guards and arrest sadre. Surgical strike. Of course i dont know how well that would go over with the Iraqi government or people, but it might be a genuine option for us.

Yeah, that worked real well in Mogadishu..........

[Rictor]

"surgical strikes" or "tactical assults" are never as precise or as effective as you think. Certain people seem to think that Special Forces could take on the Red Army in 10 minutes. In a place like the Imam Ali mosque, that is crawling with insurgents, a SF team would get mown down in about 10 second flat, or they would have done it already. Besides, damaging the mosque is not something they can afford to do, and I think they know it.

ionia: you're right, anyone who mounts an effective resistance, in their own country no less, is godless scum and you just have to get a big enough gun to show them who's boss. Resistance will not be tolerated; not in Iraq, not anywhere.

[beatspete]

Originally posted by Rictor

Isn't it obvious by now that the country can not be won by force. And that whole hearts and minds deal is about as likely as Elvis comeing back from the dead for another album. And Iraqis are very quickly wising up to the fact that Allawi might not really have their best intentions at heart (his office was recently torched).

Every dead Iraqi bring the US closer to defeat, not victory.

Wait, wasnt part of the idea of liberating iraq to install a fair, democratic goverment and bring freedom to the people?  There's always going to be some sadam loyalists and your usual phsyco muslim extremists, and the only way to win their hearts and minds is to give them control of iraq - and thats not going to be any better than when sadam was in power.

[ionia23]

as long as you have suicide bombings, roadside bombs, ambushes, armed fanatics, and foreign soldiers to fight them, you will never BE free.

[vyper]

As long as your government sponsors state terrorism and takes away your civil rights every day, you will never be free.

Out with  the commie, in with the sand n.....

[Rictor]

Originally posted by beatspete


Wait, wasnt part of the idea of liberating iraq to install a fair, democratic goverment and bring freedom to the people?  There's always going to be some sadam loyalists and your usual phsyco muslim extremists, and the only way to win their hearts and minds is to give them control of iraq - and thats not going to be any better than when sadam was in power.

except that the "Saddam loyalist" thing is not really all its cracked up to be. I mean, most high ranking ex-Ba'athists just need to ask for their job back and Bremer (now Allawi) will be happy to accomodate them.

As for the Islamic extremists, sure, there are several groups operating inside Iraq, who see the conflict in the MIddle East in an international light. So, wherever the Yanks are, there they will go to fight them. But I also think that the US is playing up the size and importance of this group, for obvious reasons.

Who you are not taking into account here is a sizeable and important group on ordinary Iraqis who have had too much and join the resistance. A homegrown insurgency. You talk of "terrorists" and "Saddam loyalists" because it suits your purposes to make it seem as if only fanatics and madmen are fighting the Americans, thus not even ackowledging a legitimate right to resists.

If the US really went in to give the Iraqis power, they would have done so already. Its been what, 16 months or so? And even if its taking a while, which it is, how do the permanent bases, CIA advisors within each Iraqi ministry and unalterable legal code fit it to the plan for democracy? If you were there to liberate them, why do you think you have to kill so many of 'em?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
"surgical strikes" or "tactical assults" are never as precise or as effective as you think. Certain people seem to think that Special Forces could take on the Red Army in 10 minutes. In a place like the Imam Ali mosque, that is crawling with insurgents, a SF team would get mown down in about 10 second flat, or they would have done it already. Besides, damaging the mosque is not something they can afford to do, and I think they know it.

ionia: you're right, anyone who mounts an effective resistance, in their own country no less, is godless scum and you just have to get a big enough gun to show them who's boss. Resistance will not be tolerated; not in Iraq, not anywhere.

It's not just insurgency / resistence, though.  It's a paramilitary organisation, a private army of a man who is effectively a warlord.  If you want Iraq to be democratic - and specifically free elections -  then you can;t have that.

Not that I'm saying this (the US) approach is the best way to handle this.  But at the same time, I can understand the reasons.

I know that you seem to want this whole Iraq situation in a bloody civil war so as to embarress the merkins, but at the same time I'm sure you must recognise not all insurgents are 'good' -  some will be terrorists who have come from other countries or within for the purposes of purely attacking the Americans, and some will be Ba'ath loyalists with no interest beyond re-establishing their power base.

So it's just as hypocritical to say all insurgents are freedom fighters for the good or Iraq, yaddayaddayadda, as it is to say they are all godless scum.

[Flipside]

The US is in a difficult situation. The more of these people that die in combat, the stronger the cause will become, it not only adds to Americas reputation, it also adds to the whole 'romantic' element which appeals so much to teenagers, 'fighting in a Holy War against the Ultimate Evil'. I wonder how many of these 'insurgents' are just kids who have foolish ideas of their own mortality? After all, it's only happened to other people so far.... After all, you are in the 'Right', just as the US is.

I remember a video posted of some 16-17 year old kid with an RPG. His arm was shot off and then he was shot in the head. Fine, he was pointing an RPG at something, so he got shot, that's war. However, one thing sticks in my mind, it's the look of complete disbelief on the boy's face as he stares at his arm, like he never believed he was going to get shot at, I think I will remember that expression for a long time.

There is just as much Villifying of America going on in Iraq as their is vice versa in the US. No-one wants middle ground. America cannot pull out because what they leave behind would be a bloodbath. So they are trapped, and chasing sects of militia is like herding cats anyway.

What is needed is an honourable disentanglement, for both America and the Iraqi people. The best choice for this is to hold a truly open election. Though I don't see that ever happening.

[vyper]

Peace but with honour Flip?

I've heard that before.

[beatspete]

Originally posted by Rictor

Who you are not taking into account here is a sizeable and important group on ordinary Iraqis who have had too much and join the resistance.

Well thats just stupid.  Re-building a country doesnt happen overnight.  I can't imagine its a very easy time for ordinary Iraqis, but joining an insurgence is doing even more damage.  The coalition needs to show that an uprising isn't a path to stability and prosperity - and that if you join it you will be defeated/killed.


On a side note, I was reading in the newspaper today a bit about Najaf.  In an interview with one of the rebel fighters, a man bearing a machine gun said "I just fire my machine gun, and Ali [some sort of prophet] brings the bullets to the US Helicopter - he does the aiming for me" (or words to that effect)

Yep, good luck.
Where's the tard smilie?

[vyper]

Religious nuts are still dangerous, even if they aren't aiming by themselves.

Both sides show that.

[Flipside]

Originally posted by vyper
Peace but with honour Flip?

I've heard that before.

I know, and it's never honestly been applied. Nor will it I expect. Maybe there is honour in simply being able to walk away, but Pride is a big thing, and National pride is even bigger. Religious pride is big enough to engulf the entire planet.

[Gank]

Originally posted by beatspete


Well thats just stupid.  Re-building a country doesnt happen overnight.  I can't imagine its a very easy time for ordinary Iraqis, but joining an insurgence is doing even more damage.  The coalition needs to show that an uprising isn't a path to stability and prosperity - and that if you join it you will be defeated/killed.
 

What the coalition needs to do is **** off home like 90% of Iraqis want them to do. What the Iraqis need to do is make it clear to the coalition that they arent welcome anymore, preferably with large truck bombs.