Author Topic: U.S. launches offensive in Najaf  (Read 3722 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Gank


Simple answer, same thing thats going to happen whenever they do leave. The US has no credibility in the country now and neither they or any of their appointed puppet rulers are going to bring peace and stability to the place, their continued presence is the main reason for the lack of it. As for a civil war, its probably inevitable, given the rise in power of Sunni and Shia extremists like Al Sadr.


Well, maybe it is invitable - I hope it's not, and I don't think it's an excuse to just run away from a problem when you know it's not going to solve it.  

But I'd support an attempt to repair the damage the war has done, rather than run away and allow Iraq to collapse, any day.  It's just unfortunate that the US response to insurgency has been so badly botched.... but given the choice between allowing Iraq to slide into civil war, or trying to hold it together to allow democratic elections to take place, I prefer the latter.

(and if you're going to throw in 'not-democratic', 'puppet leader', etc etc etc with regards to elections, it's my hope that the international pressure being exerted will prevent this occuring)

That's my position.  I didn't want the war, i didn't think it war right, but I think that the 'coalition', especially the US, now has a duty to repair the damage they caused.

Quote
Originally posted by Warlock

Somehow I doubt the internet/phone possessing Iraqi's would be the majority of the population.

Or did some poor fool do door to door asking for each person's vote?

I think alot of ppl tend to forget things like this when they see "The All Mighty Poll Results" because for us,..in our home countries respectively,...having access to the internet or at least a phoneline is a very common thing.

So perhaps it's better said "The figure is probably between 95% and 100% 'of those able to vote in the poll'. Which for all we know is 3 ppl and a hampster, albeit it a wealthy successful hampster ;)


which would be between 95% & 100% of the best-off Iraqis, if they have working power or a telephone line.

 

Offline Janos

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf


See, it's really easy, the different Sunni/Shia clans will live in peace and harmony FOREVER.
lol wtf

 

Offline Rictor

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
uh, I'm not buying that, no way are there that many distinct clans.

 

Offline aldo_14

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Depends if it's along familial lines.  Not sure what would define a Sunni / Shia clan, but IIRC Scotland had 20+ clans (pre Culloden) and a much smaller land area.

 

Offline Janos

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
uh, I'm not buying that, no way are there that many distinct clans.


edit: Well, here's the legend: http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/legend.JPG
« Last Edit: August 17, 2004, 09:49:07 am by 1621 »
lol wtf

 

Offline Rictor

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
But what is implied by Janos is that all these clans will somehow have a go at each other at the drop of a hat. I don't know exacty how the clan system works, having never lived in a country that has one, but am I right in thinking that there isn't a whole lot of animosity between the clans anymore, and even if there s, that people don't identify themselves primarily as members of such and such a clan?

 

Offline Janos

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
But what is implied by Janos is that all these clans will somehow have a go at each other at the drop of a hat. I don't know exacty how the clan system works, having never lived in a country that has one, but am I right in thinking that there isn't a whole lot of animosity between the clans anymore, and even if there s, that people don't identify themselves primarily as members of such and such a clan?


No, no, most likely not they won't go at each other, but in society like Iraq the chance is not theoretical. The clans are not just family-based, but also religion/ethnicity-based.

Pretty universally, every country with strong clan-based societies or many different ethnic groups living among each needs a strong central government to prevent the clans from trying to dictate the policies in and near their respective areas [no ****, sherlock!]. In a case of civil unrest and power vacuum, these checks and balances naturally fail.
  It does not mean that the clans will immediately and automatically go after each other crying for blood, but more that the means to prevent such thing from happening do not exist.
Unless one of the different groups and alliances gains superiority in such situation and can simply override the other groups in one way or another [having more political influence, direct involvement and so on..], the possibility of impending catastrophe in diversed enviroment usually causes the different groups to try to make sure that they will survive/maintain status quo/get stronger.

In the case of power collapse and possible civil war, it would get really messy. Since different powerhouses support different factions and vice versa, even small conflicts have possibility to escalte quickly if there's no way to punish these semi-sovereign entities from even thinking that [read: central governmen, occupying force or any other suprior authority in said situation).

There are pretty much examples of such situations. Say, Afghanistan - there was a strong central government before Soviet invasion. After Soviets left, there was pretty much no one to get the upper hand at once, so the country kinda collapsed. Later, Talibans were able to drive the other groups into corner (they, naturally, had an uneasy peace treaty with each other because Talibans were much greater threat). As soon as Taliban regime fell, the different powerhouses began to gain more power. Now, there's the international group to try to prevent yet another bloodshed, but it seems a pretty tough task. Actually, this also applies to much of Caucasian Asia.
Somalia is yet another example, though the traditional rules gave the clans much greater power than in Afghanistan.

I know this was a long and incoherent post, but I think you'll get my point.
lol wtf

 

Offline aldo_14

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
But what is implied by Janos is that all these clans will somehow have a go at each other at the drop of a hat. I don't know exacty how the clan system works, having never lived in a country that has one, but am I right in thinking that there isn't a whole lot of animosity between the clans anymore, and even if there s, that people don't identify themselves primarily as members of such and such a clan?


I would imagine there will be a sort of informal alliance / enemy situation which would cause any conflict to escalate. However, certain clans will have been heaily oppressed by Saddam, and thus are likely to be aching for revenge.  Throw in a possible bid for Kurdish independence, foreign fighters & terrorists who have arrived to fight the merkins, possible interference from outside parties wishing to destabilse Iraq (Iran being a prime candidate, although this is wild speculation on my part) and I'd imagine you have an explosive combination (literally).

 I think a 'clan' has different meanings based upon the nation, anyways.

The Scottish definition of a clan was essentially akin to a lord (clan chief) and a serfdom.  The clan members were able to work upon the land, but had to (amongst other things) fight for the clan when required  (signalled by the burning cross, IIRC).  The clans would sometimes unify to fight a common enemy (i.e. the English, albeit some clans took the English side to preserve power or whatnot), but also each other (I'd need to check this).  The clans were destroyed after the defeat at Culloden, though - the English destroyed the clan system, suppressing the culture behind it. (Which has kind of led to an artificial view of the 'romance' of the clans)

 

Offline Gank

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Warlock
Somehow I doubt the internet/phone possessing Iraqi's would be the majority of the population.

Or did some poor fool do door to door asking for each person's vote?

I think alot of ppl tend to forget things like this when they see "The All Mighty Poll Results" because for us,..in our home countries respectively,...having access to the internet or at least a phoneline is a very common thing.


Eh, I think some people seem to forget that the internet or phonelines are not the usual way of taking polls. Both polls refered too were CPA polls taken door to door in all the major cities.

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Well, maybe it is invitable - I hope it's not, and I don't think it's an excuse to just run away from a problem when you know it's not going to solve it.  

The US is the problem Aldo, running away is exactly the way to stop it

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
But I'd support an attempt to repair the damage the war has done, rather than run away and allow Iraq to collapse, any day.  It's just unfortunate that the US response to insurgency has been so badly botched.... but given the choice between allowing Iraq to slide into civil war, or trying to hold it together to allow democratic elections to take place, I prefer the latter.
 


Proper democratic elections wont take place under US guidance anyways, as they've banned a few people and yet more refuse to work with them.

Btw, this Sunni-Shia civil war, its ****e, there hasnt been a civil war between Shias and Sunnis since Mohammeds death and its very unlikely there will be one now, despite the efforts of some groups.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2004, 06:49:56 pm by 723 »

 

Offline tEAbAG

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Sure, if you don't count the Shia uprising in '91 (during which the US shamefully sat idle while they were slaughtered).  The Shia were treated as 2nd class throughout Saddams (Sunni dominated) reign.

The US leaving Iraq no would result in, at best, another dictator; at worst, an Iranian puppet or mid-east Somilia.  I'd be the first to say we shouldn't have gone in but, whats done is done and now we're stuck with the clean up.
If happiness is a warm gun and love is a battlefield, why should we give peace a chance?

C-130 rollin' down the strip
hits a rock and start to tip
its all right, its OK
full of soldiers anyway

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Offline Janos

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by tEAbAG
Sure, if you don't count the Shia uprising in '91 (during which the US shamefully sat idle while they were slaughtered).  The Shia were treated as 2nd class throughout Saddams (Sunni dominated) reign.

 


Kurds.
lol wtf

 

Offline Rictor

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
No, teabag's right, it was the Sh'ia. You may be thinking of the gasing of the Kurds Janos, which was back in '88 if I recall.

 

Offline vyper

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
They're ending up with a puppet government anyway.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline aldo_14

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
No, teabag's right, it was the Sh'ia. You may be thinking of the gasing of the Kurds Janos, which was back in '88 if I recall.


I think he's suggesting the Kurds as well

 

Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
No, teabag's right, it was the Sh'ia. You may be thinking of the gasing of the Kurds Janos, which was back in '88 if I recall.


Um, the entire 1980s, actually.
 And during the first Gulf War US suggested the Shias AND kurds to rise in revolt and then backed off. Results were happy and glorious, people danced in the streets, children played in the meadows, you know, usual stuff.

Edit: Goddamnit aldo :mad:
lol wtf

  

Offline Rictor

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
right, gotcha.

As you said, the Kurds have been at odds with Saddam throught the 80s and in fact were right to the invasion. I think that there is a distinct possibility that they will break off from Iraq. They fought so hard to get here, years of resisiting Saddam (not to mention Turkey) and I think the only reason they helped the Yanks invade was because they saw this as a golden opportnity to accomplish what they're been after for decades - independence.

 

Offline Janos

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
right, gotcha.

As you said, the Kurds have been at odds with Saddam throught the 80s and in fact were right to the invasion. I think that there is a distinct possibility that they will break off from Iraq. They fought so hard to get here, years of resisiting Saddam (not to mention Turkey) and I think the only reason they helped the Yanks invade was because they saw this as a golden opportnity to accomplish what they're been after for decades - independence.


I'm sad. I really think Kurds should have their own nation, but I know Turkey does not support the idea (nor Iraq,  or Iran, or Russia, or Germany, and definately not USA, nor any country with any importance) and it's unlikely to happen.

Small nations and people are just small dogs - as soon as a bigger dog comes from behind the corner and growls, what does the little dog do?
lol wtf

 

Offline aldo_14

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
The other problem is that 'splitting up' countries can potentially destabilise other countries, by encouraging seperatist nationalists, which is largely what Turkey fears (with regard to their own Turkish population).... it's a tricky situation.  

I think maybe there's always some concern that splitting a country along nationalist lines can cause long time problems in terms of previous rivalry...i.e. the nation against the nation they were once part of (or another nation formed out of its ashes).

But, of course, the Kurds have had to fight bloody hard just to survive as a people in Iraq, and IIRC they're not exactly treated like kings in Turkey.

So I can understand the reasons for both sides.

 

Offline ionia23

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Quote
Originally posted by Janos
Small nations and people are just small dogs - as soon as a bigger dog comes from behind the corner and growls, what does the little dog do?


Same thing all little dogs do: pee all over the place.
"Why does it want me to say my name?"

 

Offline vyper

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U.S. launches offensive in Najaf
Growl and prepare to fight. I've seen scottish terriers ready to take on pitbulls.

You can only push anyone so far before they start pushing back.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14