[HotSnoJ]

Two Russian planes are missing, one apparently already crashed. 2nd missing.


sorry no news story ATM, just heard it in Fox News.

[Arc]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3596354.stm
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1148830,00.html

[vyper]

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=570898§ion=news

[Bobboau]

this sounds a little more than suspect.

[vyper]

And also an excuse for a russian Patriot Act

[Rictor]

Russians don't need a PATRIOT act, they've got Putin: the walking, talking iron fist.

[vyper]

I think he'd like a little more... just to keep up with his neighbours.

[Flipside]

Apparently, the one that vanished sent out a Hijack signal before they lost contact.....

[aldo_14]

Chechens?

[karajorma]

Seems pretty likely.

[Rictor]

quite possible. And if it is, God help them, there's gonna be bloody reprisals.

anyone remember the theatre incident?

[vyper]

They've denied it. Hmm...

[Bobboau]

syncronised airplaine hijackings that result in the plaines crashing within three minutes of each other, no doubt the Chechens were in some way involved, but that is sort of the halmark of another well known terrorist group, but of course, they only want to kill Americans, they positively love Europe, so lets not even consider the posability...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Bobboau
syncronised airplaine hijackings that result in the plaines crashing within three minutes of each other, no doubt the Chechens were in some way involved, but that is sort of the halmark of another well known terrorist group, but of course, they only want to kill Americans, they positively love Europe, so lets not even consider the posability...

You're making the mistake of regarding terrorist groups as discrete entities with no connection to each other.  There are connections between most if not all Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups, so saying 'Chechens' does not exclude Al-queda by any means. (NB: not to imply all Chechen rebels / terrorists are islamic fundamentalists)

However, the Chechens have been responsibly for multiple suicide bombing and the Moscow theatre disaster in recent times - who do you think is the most likely to be involved in terrorism against Russia?

[Bobboau]

I think you made the mistake of not recogniseing sarcasm, I was implying it seemed to have the hallmarks of an Al Qeta atack, thog there is no doubt that it was carried out by some Chechen faction

[Rictor]

But I don't equate Chechen rebels with Al Queda. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter, but the fact is that the Russians are occupying Chechnya against the wishes of the people. They've got a country under occupation, while al Queda can't really be said to be fighting oppression (not counting the ideologic kind). They were formed by the US and Pakistan to fight off the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that they did, but after that they were more or less an army without a cause.

[Flipside]

I thought that was the Taliban?

It always seemed odd to me that about a decade ago I was watching TV broadcast praising the 'brave' Taliban in their was against the oppressive Soviets. Funny how things swing around really.

If it is Chechen rebels, they are simply using phsycological tactics, using the same techniques as big Al serves only to draw international attention very very quickly.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
But I don't equate Chechen rebels with Al Queda. Whether you agree with it or not is another matter, but the fact is that the Russians are occupying Chechnya against the wishes of the people. They've got a country under occupation, while al Queda can't really be said to be fighting oppression (not counting the ideologic kind). They were formed by the US and Pakistan to fight off the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that they did, but after that they were more or less an army without a cause.

The Chechen rebels - or rather, the terrorists responsible for suicide bombings et al at the very least - want not just an independent Chechnya, but also one which is a Muslim country.  This is something that would mesh very closely with the philosophy of Al-queda, would it not?

Also, I'm sure there have been various reports of activites in Afghanistan, etc, where Chechens have either been involved in the fighting, or have been training alongside al-queda members / in al-queda training camps.  (The latter case is somewhat inevitable, i guess - renting theses 'facilities' would probably be a good way of raising money on the quiet for Al-Queda).

Are you sure you can really put the existence of Al-queda solely down to Afghanistan, though?  there have been Islamic terrorist groups for many years, owing to the Israel / Palestine situation.... i'm not sure how accurate it is to state that al-queda is formed solely as a result of the US forming a guerilla army in Afghanistan, even if that was a major component in creating the spiritual figurehead of the organisation.

[Rictor]

well, none of the present groups (Taliban, al Queda, etc) existed then as we know them now. AFAIK, it was mostly just "the mujahideen" and somewhere during/after the war, the distinct groups formed.

As for their tactics, well, I think that in the context they make sense. Chechnya is not nearly as well publicized as Palestine, so for one thing, most people don't even know that there is a conflict or that Russia is occupying anyone. And secondly, Putin is an authoritarian to be sure, and it seems to me is seeking for the bad old days of Russian power. Which means, he's not going to pull out because of a few protests here and there. Russia is strong enough, and Putin resolute enough to ignore any international pressure to withdraw, if there even was any such pressure, which there isn't. So, obviously, whats left then is to force a retreat militarily. Putin is about to finish his second term (I may be wrong, but I think Russia has a two term limit), so an election could make Checnya a prime issue for Russians, sort of like Iraq for America.

edit: scratch that, Putin has just *begun* his second term in May. my bad.

[Ford Prefect]

I would hope that the fact that about five people own all the money would also get some attention.