Author Topic: 'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground  (Read 5813 times)

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Offline karajorma

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by ionia23
How did I know you'd find some leftist political angle to this thing....


Don't lump that stupidity in with the left. I'm pretty far to the left and I think cutting money from science is as about as stupid as you can get.
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Offline ionia23

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


Don't lump that stupidity in with the left. I'm pretty far to the left and I think cutting money from science is as about as stupid as you can get.


Fair enough indeed, I stand corrected.:)
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Offline Rictor

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
ah well, its not like this has ruined the otherwise perfect streak of agreement with everything you say ionia. I remember having this same discussion before, and my general view was (and is), that problems here on Earth ought to be fixed before we go galavanting around space. Thats seems kind like common sense to me, not a specific political ideology.

I tried to explain all this to NASA, but they're not returning my calls.

 

Offline ionia23

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
ah well, its not like this has ruined the otherwise perfect streak of agreement with everything you say ionia. I remember having this same discussion before, and my general view was (and is), that problems here on Earth ought to be fixed before we go galavanting around space. Thats seems kind like common sense to me, not a specific political ideology.

I tried to explain all this to NASA, but they're not returning my calls.


Yup, I remember that too.  It's not as cut and dry as "well, we'll just cut funding for teacher's raises so we can keep kids from starving".

There's such a sickening abundance of food in this country the very idea that anyone starves at all is astounding, but that's a totally separate issue.  People aren't going without eating because NASA exists.

One more thing: I don't suppose you'd entertain the possibility that one of the contributing factors to 'mishaps' such as this is the cutting of funding for the sciences, specifically in the field of space exploration?
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Offline Rictor

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
no, you're right. Its not as simple as cutting funding to X to finance Y, at least not on an international level. If you're talking domestically, then yes, but the world has some deep social problems and inequalities that need to be fixed to bring needless suffering to an end. Alot of it has to do with a grossly disproportionate distrubtion of wealth and resources.

but that's a story for another day.

edit: cutting of funds to applicable sciences, yes somewhat. But while collecting space dust and running around on Mars is all well and good, and makes for great headlines, I fail to see how its actually of practical use to people.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 04:16:57 pm by 644 »

 

Offline karajorma

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Yeah. And tell Roentgen to stop f**king about with those vaccuum tubes while you're at it. As for Becquerel and those stupid rocks what a waste of time that was.

Rictor. You sicken me.
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Offline Vaelinx

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
The world does have some social problems and inequalities.  Now, you may fail to see how space exploration helps some of these issues, but I'd like to hear how it makes them worse...

Besides, the spinoff technological benefits from the space program have been more numerous than we may ever know.  Everything from water purification to microcomputers, to communication links of all kinds...  thousands of advancements in medical science that has resulted in saving the lives of millions...  long and short term weather predictions that save just as many lives...  that computer joystick you probably play freespace with...

...to name a few ;)

Anyhow, not all these things are going to solve any "deep social problems and inequalities that need to be fixed."  But many of them certainly help.  And the things they don't help probably won't magically get better by throwing more money at them... :(
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Offline Mongoose

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Why should we explore space?  Because it's there :D.

 

Offline ionia23

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
no, you're right. Its not as simple as cutting funding to X to finance Y, at least not on an international level. If you're talking domestically, then yes, but the world has some deep social problems and inequalities that need to be fixed to bring needless suffering to an end. Alot of it has to do with a grossly disproportionate distrubtion of wealth and resources.

but that's a story for another day.

edit: cutting of funds to applicable sciences, yes somewhat. But while collecting space dust and running around on Mars is all well and good, and makes for great headlines, I fail to see how its actually of practical use to people.


Okay, the 'practicality' argument I can live with.  It would be hard to explain the value of the scientific data being collected by Genesis, Spirit, Opportunity, Stardust, Cassini, and Voyager to a guy on the street corner trying to bum change from me for whatever purpose.

Here's an easy way to think about it:

I'm not sure even what part of the world you live in, but I'm going to assume you're familiar with the concept of the 401K plan offered to some employees in this country.  Have some money deducted from your paycheck, company matches it up to X amount, deposit it in a mutual fund or whatnot, and you can't touch it until you're 59 1/2.

(be gentle folks, that's a pretty grand generalization).

People who live close to the paycheck-to-paycheck line will look on that and say "But I need the money NOW.".  They will not see the practicality in socking money away that they 'need' right now.

Of course, when the retirement years hit....oh boy.

Space exploration is a very slow, very gradual, and after the Apollo program got canned, very frugal investment in our future.  The return on investment can be summarized in just a few examples:

New manufacturing tecniques that can only be explored in zero gravity, conditions we CANNOT create for any extended period of time on Earth.

Satelites for communication, weather, surveillance, etc.

A greater understanding of the of events outside Earth's atmosphere, and how they impact us below.  How difficult do you think the prediction of catstrophic weather events would be if we didn't have weather satellites, or the ability to provide warnings of impending solar flares?

Researching nearby planets and moons for possible colonization in the distant future.  We are going to have to leave the rock sooner or later.

Firing the imagination so people can think beyond 'when will I eat next'.

Numerous advances in synthetics.

hell, signifigant chunks of the computer you're working on are a direct result of the space program.  cause - effect.

Remember "Live Aid" from 1985?  Bob Geldof's big old "Feed The World" concept to bring aid to Africa through donations?  The guy managed to raise some ridiculous amount of money, like 100 million dollars.  In most cases, the food and supplies purchased with those funds never reached their intended recipients due to attrition, war, or whatever.  It rotted on docks.  Isn't that sad?  What this tells you is the social problems of the world cannot be solved by simply throwing money at them.

Bill Gates has enough net worth to buy himself six space shuttles of his own.  He could fund NASA for five years or more, probably just on stock turnovers alone.  And he's very generous with his money.



Nasa's Operating Budget for Fiscal 2003  was 15 billion dollars.  More than double that was spent on tobacco products.  Why not ask people to give up the habit and donate that money to the underpriviledged?

More to the point, why does the money have to come from NASA?  How about we buy a few less stealth bombers for the military? or do away with raises for teachers?  or funding for safe sex programs for teenagers?

There is no fundamental reason why we cannot look to our future, fire our imagination, AND work on the social problems of the world at the same time.  Successes in space give a good feeling of unity, unless you prefer the 'good feeling of unity' brought on by, say, a terrorist attack.

Space exploration benefits a group of individuals.  What an individual within that group gains is up to them to decide.

I have to say, you are the last person around here I expected would question the practicality of the space program.  Really, I'm stunned.
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Offline adwight

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
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Originally posted by Raa
Well, there's only one thing to say; "Thanks Utah! For smacking your big ass nothingness into the probe!"
 :rolleyes:


Hey's its not my fault the parachutes didn't open :p.
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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
I'm just glad they do these things with unmanned craft.  I just saw the footage of the thing hit the ground.  If anyone had been aboard that they'd be Human Cream by now.

 
'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Itd be great if we solved all the social problems on earth only to be wiped out by a meteor we didnt detect because we redirected all the funds.

GG scientific research is key for advancing humanity, space exploration is a driving force in said research.

  

Offline Corsair

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Re: 'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by Galemp
Score another one for NASA. I wonder how the Mars program's going...
Mars program? You mean it actually exists? I thought that was just something that the president said in a speech to have some fun with every space-junky's mind. :D
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Offline Vaelinx

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Re: Re: 'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by Corsair
Mars program? You mean it actually exists? I thought that was just something that the president said in a speech to have some fun with every space-junky's mind. :D


;)  With the (media) attention it's been getting lately, if I didn't know better I'd probably agree.

But, believe it or not, Spirit and Opportunity are still going, despite the fact that they were only designed to last 90 days...  So, we could harp on failures, or the successes...

Sad thing is, unless astronauts die, things crash, or (evil) aliens are discovered, you won't see NASA getting any media attention. :(  It's hard to believe that the program that put the Hubble up (it was only the first of three phases) finished and for the first time since I can remember, we have more data than we know what to do with. :)

I'll tell you a secret...  That's why all the newest and best weather satellites are placed in orbit by none other than the US Navy...  They can spend the money and take the risks on new technology.  If something goes wrong, nobody hears except the people who need to (ie: congress, and then the media if they care).  But if something goes wrong with a NASA satellite, it's front-page news and everyone starts screaming about how useless NASA is...  So on weather satellite food chain, it goes Navy, NASA, then European space agency.  I kinda wish t was the other way around, but that's public opinion.  Go Pr0p4Ga|\|d4!!!
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Offline Bobboau

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
god damnit Rictor! you hate America and now you've got to go and hate Mars too! I mean god damnit!
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Offline Bobboau

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
but in all seriusness, the last five hundred trillion didn't fix world hunger, but the 800 million from this probe sure as hell would have fixed it!
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Offline Ford Prefect

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Earth will never be free of problems. If we wait until things are all going swell on Earth to conduct space exploration it will never happen. The efforts must be simultaneous.
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Offline Flipside

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Not even scientists can foresee everything. possible the chutes were damaged by heat, maybe something jammed the release mexhanism, for every 'thing' we know it floating between us and the Sun, theres 100 things we don't know about. That was the point of the mission in the first place.

It's a terrible pity that this happened, more so because NASA had tried to play it for publicity for the looks of things. I don't blame them as such, they need the funding, but it always works in the opposite direction when this sort of thing happens :(

As for the whole 'world hunger' thing, I think Rictor is meaning is the millions of the local currency our various governments spend on things like nuclear weapons research, I mean what do they hope to achieve, irradiate an extra 100 square miles of land, or create a 'civilian friendly' H-Bomb? Theres already enough nuclear weapons on the planet to irradiate it something like 3 times over, and enough Bioweaps to poison it several hundred times that. I'd be all for redirecting the money for research such as that into hydroponics, solar power, sexual education programs etc.

In all fairness, it is some countries themselves that have stood in the way of such things happening, seeing it as an attempt at spying or invasion, and possibly Ric picked a bad example, but I do know that millions are flowing into research that is pointless every year, just look at some of the scientific grants that have been given out, millions to completely pointless experiments, How long can people will themselves to stay awake, got a 1.2 million grant to find out!? Just get a room full of Uni students and as much beer etc as you can, and start timing.

Either way, sorry to see it end like that, the info would have been interesting :)

 
'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
No flipside you fool throwing billions at ethnic slaughter will prevent it!

Money can do everything!

That said the biggest breakthroughs in solarpower and hydroponics are going to come via the space program.

 

Offline Vaelinx

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'Genesis' spacecraft slams into ground
Quote
Originally posted by Mr Carrot
No flipside you fool throwing billions at ethnic slaughter will prevent it!

Money can do everything!

That said the biggest breakthroughs in solarpower and hydroponics are going to come via the space program.


That said the biggest breakthroughs in solarpower and hydroponics have come via the space program.

http://aerospacescholars.jsc.nasa.gov/HAS/cirr/ss/3/5.cfm
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html
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