[Rictor]

no, I really couldn't come up with a creative title.

http://nypress.com/17/36/news&columns/Taibbi2.cfm

HEY, YOU ASSHOLES: The 60s are over!

I'm not talking about your white-guy fros, mutton-chops and beads. I'm not talking about your Che t-shirts or that wan, concerned, young-Joanie-Baez look on the faces of half of your women. I'm not even talking about skinny young potheads carrying wood puppets and joyously dancing in druid-circles during a march to protest a bloody war.

I'm not harping on any of that. I could, but I won't. Because the protests of the last week in New York were more than a silly, off-key exercise in irrelevant chest-puffing. It was a colossal waste of political energy by a group of people with no sense of history, mission or tactics, a group of people so atomized and inured to its own powerlessness that it no longer even considers seeking anything beyond a fleeting helping of that worthless and disgusting media currency known as play....

[Liberator]

Rictor, I think you're becoming *cue music* Liberated!

Seriously, those yahoos were and are more about getting their faces on the television than they are about actually approaching an argument from anything resembling a coherent, well-reasoned position.

The article makes a good point too, American society is fractured and only truly fears organizations that are formed to make substantial change, whether good or ill(depends on who you talk to and when, I am rapidly becoming an Independant, simply because the Republicans are sliding into nothing but shrill counter accusations(Hannity) instead of making points about Kerry's complete lack of any sort of workable plan for anything, or talking about the truly important issues like why our borders are like wet tissue when it comes to stopping the flood of illegal aliens streaming across the border.

[Ace]

If dueling was allowed again in the US, all of the problems would be over in a few days.

It'd be like a civil civil war

[Kosh]

Seriously, those yahoos were and are more about getting their faces on the television than they are about actually approaching an argument from anything resembling a coherent, well-reasoned position.

Even you come up with something resembling a coherent arguement, even though your reasoning is often flawed.

And the Republicans are also trying to use scare tactics to get people to vote for Bush (this is Cheney doing most of this). That is just wrong for them to do that. It's bad enough for them to exploit 9/11 and the Olympics, but exploiting peoples fears is even worse.

[redmenace]

yah like kerry saying that bush is going to roll back civil rights is not scare tactics? or that he will abolish Social Security?
I don't like Bush, but come on.

[Liberator]

Social Security can kill itself without help thank you very much.  It's not a solvent entity financially.  The money their taking from your paycheck for SS will not be there in 45-50 years when you get ready for it.

Also, how exactly would anybody roll back civil rights?  Pass a law declaring a specific racial group persona non grata?  It's impossible.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by redmenace
yah like kerry saying that bush is going to roll back civil rights is not scare tactics?

Look at the Patriot Act. He's already done it. No real reason to believe he won't do it again given the chance.

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Liberator
Social Security can kill itself without help thank you very much.  It's not a solvent entity financially.  The money their taking from your paycheck for SS will not be there in 45-50 years when you get ready for it.

Unless you Americans are governed by utter morons, your Social Security will work fine.  What do you think they do, just sit on the money?  No, they invest it.  Do a good job, and one can make a profit.  Our systems up here have been running surpluses for years, thanks to good management and shrewd investing.

[magatsu1]

*whispers in Sesquipedalian's ear* "Federal Defecit" (that's what it's called right ?)

Originally posted by Liberator
talking about the truly important issues like why our borders are like wet tissue when it comes to stopping the flood of illegal aliens streaming across the border.

you do realise that unless you're of Native American lineage thn strictly speaking you (or rather your great, great granparents or whatever) are illegal immigrants.

[Rictor]

Guys you're missing the point.

The point is that protests have become little more than a moral pat on the back for those protesting, to make themselves feel better, as if they're changing the world.

What worked back in the 60s doesn't work as well, or probably at all today. Just marching around in large groups with sign will not ACCOMPLISH anything. Sure, you'll have a good time, and go home at the end of the day feeling like you're taking on the forces of evil and all that, but in realy terms, you've not really helped.

Unless people are willing to get organized, and back up their protests with a financial or political assult on the people or institutions they are protesting, its all for naught. This is what I've been saying for years now. These once-a-year activists, with their nice, orderly, regulated protests, they have no concept of how to really strike a blow for their cause.

Like the article says, people marching are not threatening anymore. It happens all the time. Protests this, protest that...no one is surprised or threatened anymore.

Good intentionss - yes. But crappy results.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by magatsu1
*whispers in Sesquipedalian's ear* "Federal Defecit" (that's what it's called right ?)




you do realise that unless you're of Native American lineage thn strictly speaking you (or rather your great, great granparents or whatever) are illegal immigrants.

They could have been deported as criminals, IIRC.  So they'd be 'legal illegals'

[Knight Templar]

when you have a population who largely doesn't care, and a government that is activily into the process of ignoring you to any extent possible, then yes, protesting is a waste of time for both you and people driving.

[mrfun]

I was in Rome on vacation for the anti-Bush protest in June.  It was very refreshing to see 10 or 12 completely viable political parties vying for attention.  Not to mention the satisfaction of joining in with people from another country and ridiculing Bush for the same reasons.  Everywhere in else in Rome I walked that day (I was wearing a tie dyed shirt and looked rather American) people would stop me and ask if I knew what was going on.  I doubt it was truly accomplishing much, but people did actually noticed there was something going on, while the American approach seems to be defined by it's apathy on all fronts.  For 2 elections we've had candidates that aren't really different from each other, from parties that won't take a stand on their own ideals, pitching the same arguments to a populous that doesn't care anymore.  I wanna move to Canada or something.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by karajorma


Look at the Patriot Act. He's already done it. No real reason to believe he won't do it again given the chance.

Well the group that this was said to was a group of african americans. the speach was meant to purposefully to rile up the black voters. it is a long term held tactic here in the US.(unfortunatly) As for the patriot act it is way to over the top and even if it didn't "threaten" individual rights it still makes imigration difficult for all peoples regaurdless of natonality and religous greed which is a horrible direction to take since importing the worlds greatest minds to learn and work here has given the US a advantage for years.

[karajorma]

Don't forget the way Bush's brother managed to "accidentally" prevent thousands of mainly black people from voting in Florida.

Personally I reckon Jeb should be in jail for that one.

[Ford Prefect]

There's a part of me that believes that Bush would like to see social programs such as Social Security dismantled, his school of thought being that people should have to do everything themselves. Reagan made it halfway there by running the Great Society programs into the ground; Bush probably wants nothing better than to finish the job.

As for protests, I think the article makes a good point. Protests have to be scary in order to be effective. Perhaps a little arson and disorder would give those in power a reminder that people really do care. (I doubt I'll be the one to do it, though.)

[Rictor]

yeah, usually its only a few anarchist groups who have the balls and conviction to actually pick a fight or do something other than wave signs. Your normal, button-down, once-a-year protestor type will almost always obey authority, even when the point of protests is to confront authority.

Like getting a permit to protest...am I the only one who sees the contradiction in that?

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
There's a part of me that believes that Bush would like to see social programs such as Social Security dismantled, his school of thought being that people should have to do everything themselves. Reagan made it halfway there by running the Great Society programs into the ground; Bush probably wants nothing better than to finish the job.

As for protests, I think the article makes a good point. Protests have to be scary in order to be effective. Perhaps a little arson and disorder would give those in power a reminder that people really do care. (I doubt I'll be the one to do it, though.)

I just lost any respect for you I might have had.

[Ford Prefect]

Well, Deepblue, you certainly do seem to be struggling with great inner turmoil.

Out of curiosity, was it my indictment of neoconservatism or my take on protesting?

[vyper]

[q]Like getting a permit to protest...am I the only one who sees the contradiction in that?[/q]

Next they'll get a license to hurl eggs...