[karajorma]

Well said Black Wolf. It's always nice to know why the brick wall you're banging your head against is so strong

[Mongoose]

Wait, so because you're outside the system, your view is "clearer" and more well-informed than mine?  Yeah, that's right, the only reason I support Bush is because I'm deluded by my American upbringing.  No, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I rationally, clearly agree with what he's done and what he plans to do, as well as trusting his confidence a lot more than that pansy Kerry.  Let me put it in terms you can understand:  Bush supporter does not equal mindless sheep.

Oh, and by the way, regarding Reagan:  ever hear of the fall of communism? No, I guess bankrupting the Soviet Union was a terrible policy as well.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
In short, it appeals to the militant patriotism that is so deeply ingrained into them by American culture.

I actualy think that is a prety good explaination

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Then compare it with ourselves, the "foreigners", those of us outside the system. Our news reports are of dry numbers - we see things far clearer than they do because they don;t directly affect us.

now here is a question that I often see people dodge, how you you know that you are 'outside' of anything, how do you know that your political leaders arn't useing anti-American retoric to gain political power, surely you don't think them above this.

Originally posted by Black Wolf
We know that Bush's tax cuts have been aimed almost exclusively at the rich, and since that doesn't really affect us either way, we can oppose it on principle.

now I'm going to address this specificly, it isn't that we don't know about this it is that some of us don't think it's right that people have to pay more in taxes just becose they make more, please don't give me the old 'you've been brainwashed into worshiping rich people as superior' montra

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Moreover, none of his moronic policies are tempered by anything that we can see in the same light as the Americans can see his wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (ie. fighting against personal aggressors). On the flipside of that though, we doo see Bush's foreign policy in a far more personal light than the Americans do. They know he'll never **** them over in the same way he did, say, France, but we don't.

ok how did _we_ screw France?
remember you brought this up

I think there is a bit more of a diveide here than you think, and I think it all comes down to power and who has it and what form of power they have. the USA has mostly military power, it has a lot of ecconomic and political power yess, but comparitively it's big ace is the military. compare this to Europe, which while posesing competent military power has over the last half century relyed almost entierly on ecconomic and political power to get what they want, becase they simply did not have the millitary power to face there enimies (the USSR). the mentality of both nations is set up to benifit there streingths, and there dominant ideologies.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Bobboau
now here is a question that I often see people dodge, how you you know that you are 'outside' of anything, how do you know that your political leaders arn't useing anti-American retoric to gain political power, surely you don't think them above this.

Because our government likes America at the moment. The opposition doesn't, so politically, we get a fairly balanced view. The rest of the data comes from the media. I'll admit that there could be a huge, all encompassing conspiracy designed to make us hate America, but I very much doubt it.

Originally posted by Bobboau
now I'm going to address this specificly, it isn't that we don't know about this it is that some of us don't think it's right that people have to pay more in taxes just becose they make more, please don't give me the old 'you've been brainwashed into worshiping rich people as superior' montra

Because taxation funds government, simple as that. The government needs money, and the rich are the logical source to tap, since they can afford it. By cutting tax to the rich, all you do is decrease inflow of funds, but the government still needs to get those funds from somewhere, so the burden logically has to shift to the lower classes, who can less afford it. Keep in mind, if someone earns a million dollars a year, and the government takes half of that, they're still earning ten times more than your average joe blow on the street earns, or more.

Originally posted by Bobboau
ok how did _we_ screw France?
remember you brought this up

France was an example, and I'll admit, a bad one, of what happens when you disagree with America. At best you get ignored (as in there case). I'm sure there have been worse consequences for other, smaller nations, I just couldn't think of any at the time.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Wait, so because you're outside the system, your view is "clearer" and more well-informed than mine?  Yeah, that's right, the only reason I support Bush is because I'm deluded by my American upbringing.  No, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I rationally, clearly agree with what he's done and what he plans to do, as well as trusting his confidence a lot more than that pansy Kerry.  Let me put it in terms you can understand:  Bush supporter does not equal mindless sheep.

Of course my view is clearer - I'm on the outside looking in. I'm not going to go through my post again though - I think I made my case pretty clearly up there. All I'm going to do is remind of you of the simple and undisputable fact that your country went from a healthy surplus under Clinton to a record deficit under Bush in less than a single full term.

Originally posted by Mongoose
Oh, and by the way, regarding Reagan:  ever hear of the fall of communism? No, I guess bankrupting the Soviet Union was a terrible policy as well.

The fall of the soviets was more their own doing than Regans - to all intents and purposes, he just happened to be the lucky one sitting in the big chair when they did fall, executing policy that had been set up decades previous. A stalinist government is inherently unstable, and one that is forced to try to keep up technologically and militarily with an opposing superpower (something that was initiated well before Reagan) is almost guaranteed to fall eventually. It's all a matter of time.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Wait, so because you're outside the system, your view is "clearer" and more well-informed than mine?  Yeah, that's right, the only reason I support Bush is because I'm deluded by my American upbringing.  No, it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I rationally, clearly agree with what he's done and what he plans to do, as well as trusting his confidence a lot more than that pansy Kerry.  Let me put it in terms you can understand:  Bush supporter does not equal mindless sheep.

Oh, and by the way, regarding Reagan:  ever hear of the fall of communism? No, I guess bankrupting the Soviet Union was a terrible policy as well.

Yes - we're in a position of passive neutrality, seperated from targeted advertising-stroke-propaganda by both political parties, and in a position of being able to make objective observations without threat of being labelled as 'un-patriotic' or whatnot.

[Blitzerland]

Originally posted by jdjtcagle
Can someone find a reliable source that points out all of the things Bush has done wrong within his term?

thanks

Woah, that's a hole with no bottom.

Instead of wasting my life writing down all the bajillions of things that guy has muddled up, let us focus on the positive.

Um...he didn't...er...

*Gets up and walks away into the distance

[Bobboau]

he hasn't droped the bomb yet

[Blitzerland]

Hey, good one!

[Flipside]

Oh, and by the way, regarding Reagan: ever hear of the fall of communism? No, I guess bankrupting the Soviet Union was a terrible policy as well.

Yes, it was, literally hundreds of billions of your own money was spent to do so, it was a race that need never have been run, and mostly it was the USSR trying to keep up with the US, not vice verse. So Russia collapsed and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians like you starved and/or got dragged into civil war etc. go reagan.

EDIT : Come to think of it, this is a perfect example of how we are involved in American politics, whether we like it or not. I am passionate about Bush not getting in again, but then, I have my doubts about Kerry too. The American system is designed these days to only allow the rich to apply. This worries me greatly. I think Bush getting is would be the biggest mistake ever made in history, because it would have been an entire country doing it, it's not dynasty or anything, so the American people would have voted him in.

I think if he stays on for another 4 years he is going to throw this world into a turmoil of war, I honestly do.

[Tiara]

Probably not a very reliable source but still... entertaining

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm

[Blitzerland]

Originally posted by Flipside


Yes, it was, literally hundreds of billions of your own money was spent to do so, it was a race that need never have been run, and mostly it was the USSR trying to keep up with the US, not vice verse. So Russia collapsed and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians like you starved and/or got dragged into civil war etc. go reagan.

Partially the Russians fault, however. Sorta. Mostly our fault.

But wait, it gets better. Now, old uranium rods and nuclear weapons are easily stolen from Russia (in its weakened state).

At least the arms race ended, though. But it was not without after effects.

[Flipside]

Oh, I agree with you Blitzerland, Russia was just as stupid as America, but at the end of the day, all that really happened when the USSR fell is that thousands starved, and the people in power stayed in power, just swapped uniforms for Armanis

[Blitzerland]

Someone...agreed with me? Hey, there ARE smart people on this planet.

*Orders cats to inscribe Flipside's name on wall, gets hit in the face by carp

Don't order cats. Not a good idea.

Uh...anyways, you're right as well.

I wonder why it has taken ol' Russia so long to recover anyways. I mean, they STILL haven't come close to fully recovering. Poor guys.

[Flipside]

I think it is still their military budget, The problem is that, because the Military stayed in charge even after the fall of the Soviet Union, their thinking is very much that people exist to pay for the army, that's how it's always worked.

There are still hardliners in Putin's cabinet, Putin himself is ex-military, so the chances are a great deal of Russias budget goes to maintaining it's army in Chechnya. Theres possibly lessons to be learnt from that as well if we look hard enough

And yes, don't order cats, mine just looks at me and then ignores me

[Blitzerland]

Of course. Especially with the rebels that have been attacking Russia. You read about the school? 'Nuf said.

Thus, the Russians NEED that military. Kind of a death spiral.

1.) Citizens suffer to pay for military
2.) Military protects Citizens
3.) Repeat. Citizens are perpetually taxed to death.

CUT BACK ON THE MILITARY, GUYS! Try diplomacy.

*Asks cats for a ham sandwich, gets pegged with a table leg

Uh, oh, they're getting stronger...that and i'd better go check out my table.

EDIT: Think my theory is flawed somehow...

Oh yeah.

4.) Rebels attack. Military spending increases
5.) Citizens suffer more

That covers it, I hope.

[Ford Prefect]

People seem to take for granted the idea that Reagan's gross spending destroyed the Soviet Union when in fact this is highly debatable. The Soviet Union's economy was already a complete disaster beacuse of... well, because of communism. Funny how that works, huh?

But lucky Reagan got to be president when a liberal came to power in the USSR who realized that the country was going nowhere. There is a stronger case for the assertion that, if anyone, Gorbachev brought the Cold War to a close by opening economic and political channels with the west, which Reagan was wise enough to accept.

The only thing that Reagan destroyed with his military shopping spree was the system of social programs that Johnson had put in place.

[Rictor]

What I don't understand is, why has the US not only maintained, but actually escalated its military expenditures since the end of the Cold War. Not like I care, I mean, its not my money going down the toilet, but I find it odd that people haven't woken up to the fact that literally hundreds of billions of their tax dollars are going to prop up inefficient and unnecessary arms contractors, who are rolling in cash by way of government subsidies: a gift from their friends in Washington. None of these companies could survive on the much vaunted free market. Next to oil and maybe telecom, "defense" industries are probably the biggest theft operation in the US.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
What I don't understand is, why has the US not only maintained, but actually escalated its military expenditures since the end of the Cold War. Not like I care, I mean, its not my money going down the toilet, but I find it odd that people haven't woken up to the fact that literally hundreds of billions of their tax dollars are going to prop up inefficient and unnecessary arms contractors, who are rolling in cash by way of government subsidies: a gift from their friends in Washington. None of these companies could survive on the much vaunted free market. Next to oil and maybe telecom, "defense" industries are probably the biggest theft operation in the US.

Give the people an easy enemy and they'll look the wrong way........

[Ford Prefect]

What I don't understand is, why has the US not only maintained, but actually escalated its military expenditures since the end of the Cold War. Not like I care, I mean, its not my money going down the toilet, but I find it odd that people haven't woken up to the fact that literally hundreds of billions of their tax dollars are going to prop up inefficient and unnecessary arms contractors, who are rolling in cash by way of government subsidies: a gift from their friends in Washington. None of these companies could survive on the much vaunted free market. Next to oil and maybe telecom, "defense" industries are probably the biggest theft operation in the US.

It's psychological. For half a century, America was united against a common, demonized opponent. Right down to the scale of the individual family, all our efforts were made to be somehow connected with our fight against communism. When this abruptly ended, our society was left with a deeply instilled feeling of purpose, but with no target at which to direct it, and that is what is still lingering. We're building weapons to fight an enemy that does not exist because it's just what we feel we're supposed to be doing.