[Bobboau]

"the tragedy of 9/11 defined Bush's term in office."

and Kerry's public life wasn't defined by Vietnam!?!

[Kosh]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"the tragedy of 9/11 defined Bush's term in office."

and Kerry's public life wasn't defined by Vietnam!?!

Owned.

If you are going to vote for Kerry, are you voting for him because he's John F. Kerry, The most liberal senator in Washington and wannabe war hero, or is it because he is not George W. Bush. Also, if you are for him because he's John F. Kerry, give me one concrete promise that he has made in his campaign and not flip-floped at least once on

You assume much but know little. I am not a registered voter, so in many ways, it makes no difference to me. I don't like either of them.

they are more likely to spend it in the creation of new capital creation,

That is not true at all. If you had taken any decent economics courses you would know that.

You're also forgetting about that looming $7 trillion the government owes. What is Bush going to do about it? Make it bigger.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by Liberator


I will cop to that...with one caveat.  It was WAR, despite whatever the politicians called it.  Atrocities happen in war, I won't defend the atrocities that did happen, I refuse to believe that it was as common as Kerry has everyone believing.


A minor difference, the tragedy of 9/11 defined Bush's term in office.  Kerry is just glomming on.

Now, answer me this question.  And think very hard about your answer before you give it.

If you are going to vote for Kerry, are you voting for him because he's John F. Kerry, The most liberal senator in Washington and wannabe war hero, or is it because he is not George W. Bush.  Also, if you are for him because he's John F. Kerry, give me one concrete promise that he has made in his campaign and not flip-floped at least once on.

I'll give you the only one:  He's promised to raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans.  Wealthy being anyone who makes ~$100,000 a year or more.

'Cause they can afford it is no a good reason.  They worked for their money just like the rest of us and they are more likely to spend it in the creation of new capital creation, IE purchasing Big Ticket items or starting their own business which in turn creates jobs.  I've never heard of a poor person starting a small business.

But you should realize that since Bush cut taxes to the richest 1%, Kerry lowering them would just be returning to normal. I'm not a big fan of the trickle-down theory, or giving the rich tax-cuts because it somehow supposedly creates jobs.

There is no way to ensure that rich people will create jobs, or that those jobs will be in America and not outsourced to keep costs down. You should only give tax cuts to people who can produce evidence that they have created jobs.

And God help us if John Kerry is the most liberal man in the Senate. Have you seen his voting record?

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Rictor

There is no way to ensure that rich people will create jobs, or that those jobs will be in America and not outsourced to keep costs down.
 

sence when did you care if American workers got shafted?

Originally posted by Rictor

And God help us if John Kerry is the most liberal man in the Senate. Have you seen his voting record?

that talking point was actualy based on annalasis of Kerry's record over the last year or somethng, not that that means anything, he's taken three sides of every two sided issue.

[Sandwich]

Meh. Someone I knew and respected once said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for every other form of government."


...you can now carry on bickering.

[Liberator]

Socialism(in all its myriad forms: communism, fascism, et al) looks great on paper, what with everyone helping everyone else.  Socialism assumes that everyone is the same, that they all have the same drives, ambitions and abilities.  

The problem is that humans are not all alike and never will be.  For every Michael Jordan, there's the unknown fat guy with no athletic ability.  For every Bill Gates there's a row farmer in rural Mississippi that wouldn't know shrewd business practices if they bit him on the tushie.

Now, tell us you socialists out there, what motivation is there for Joe or Bubba to get off there butts and do something worthwhile if they are guarenteed a check every two weeks?  What motivation is there for Bill Gates to make millions if the government is going to take it all but a minimum from him and give it to someone else?

[Bobboau]

how about that guy over there with the gun saying "get to work"

[Clave]

Hang on a minute, this is supposed to be a WORLD leader?  So where are the other world candidates?

There should be at least a token vote for Gerhard Shroeder, Jaques Chirac and to a lesser extent Tony Blair.

And what about Kofi Annan?

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Liberator
Now, tell us you socialists out there, what motivation is there for Joe or Bubba to get off there butts and do something worthwhile if they are guarenteed a check every two weeks?  What motivation is there for Bill Gates to make millions if the government is going to take it all but a minimum from him and give it to someone else?

Let's reapply this logic.

What motivation is there for a christian to get off his butt and do anything useful on Earth if he knows he's going to heaven as long as he prays enough?

See how stupid your logic was? Probably not.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


Let's reapply this logic.

What motivation is there for a christian to get off his butt and do anything useful on Earth if he knows he's going to heaven as long as he prays enough?

See how stupid your logic was? Probably not.

Y'know. I was chatting to a brick wall yesterday and the same arguement came up.  What are the odds of that, eh?

[vyper]

42 to 1.

[Tiara]

Since the end of the Cold War, the United States has been the world's only superpower. Some say a "hyperpower". America holds sway over the world like no other country in the entire history of humankind. It dominates in the 5 spheres of power: political, economic, military, technological, and cultural.

Ugh, I hate that site already....

[Setekh]

Originally posted by karajorma
What motivation is there for a christian to get off his butt and do anything useful on Earth if he knows he's going to heaven as long as he prays enough?

Well, I will only speak from my experience; but with the full knowledge of where I am going after I die, the reason I do things useful here (like helping others) is that part of being a Christian is to love others. How can you love someone by doing nothing when you see someone in their need? So there's plenty of reason to do things useful on Earth. Seems pretty logical to me.

[Rictor]

Yeah, people don't realize that not all Christians are loonies like Ashcroft or Bush, who believe that the best way to serve God is to force Armageddon to get here so that Jesus will come and clean house. The way I choose to interpret Christianity, though I admit my knowledge is limited, is in a kind, helpful, pious fashion, like the life Jesus himself supposedly lived. Helping other and that kind of stuff. Maybe thats just an idealization on my part, but I have seen plenty of Christian organizations founded on those principles.

Originally posted by Clave
Hang on a minute, this is supposed to be a WORLD leader?  So where are the other world candidates?

There should be at least a token vote for Gerhard Shroeder, Jaques Chirac and to a lesser extent Tony Blair.

And what about Kofi Annan?

That would be great, so long as they have authority over US foreign policy. And incidentally, please don't think that everyone who hates Bush and US imperialism loooves Chrirac and Kofi Annan and their kind. I certainly don't. Chirac and Shroeder are both bastards, and are just as corrupt and power-hungry as any other politician, and pretty big interventionists at that. Same goes for Annan, though to a lesser degree. Mostly, he just has no backbone to stand up to assert the UN's independence from political coersion.

Originally posted by Tiara

Ugh, I hate that site already....

Well, its true, you know that as well as I do. You happen to live in a country fortunate enough to be able to resist or ignore any outside influence, be it political or economic. Don't make the mistake of assuming that that is the norm.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Setekh
Well, I will only speak from my experience; but with the full knowledge of where I am going after I die, the reason I do things useful here (like helping others) is that part of being a Christian is to love others. How can you love someone by doing nothing when you see someone in their need? So there's plenty of reason to do things useful on Earth. Seems pretty logical to me.

Of course there are reasons. As I said it was a stupid piece of logic to assume that cause there is a heaven all you'd do is sit about on Earth and wait.

However it's just as stupid to believe that Bill Gates with his 40+ billions did it all for the money.  You could probably prevent Bill from making a single penny more and I doubt he'd give up working for MS cause he works there cause he enjoys it.

The point I was making is that humans are complex creatures and we don't do or not do something like work for a living solely because of the money involved.

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Rictor

Well, its true, you know that as well as I do. You happen to live in a country fortunate enough to be able to resist or ignore any outside influence, be it political or economic. Don't make the mistake of assuming that that is the norm.

Ok, lets go through it shall we;

Political; This one's true.
Military; Also true.
Economical; America is way more dependant on Europian and/or Asian economy then the other way around.
Technological; America isn't the end all of technological advancements. Though they are way up there, a lot of technology in use today and probably the future comes from outside the US itself. The most advanced part of the tech side is the military technology, not something productive.
Cultural; ROFLMAO! 99% of American culture is practically born from foreign culture. Only in the last century has America shown signs of an individual culture. But that doesn't even come CLOSE to the European and/or Asian culture bases. The only 'pure' culture is the Indian culture in America.

[Rictor]

Alright, so the important ones, political and military are true, technologically they are the best where it counts (military hardware) and even when they are not, are able to simply buy the best technologies from foreign nations. Now economically, they're pulling the strings of argueably the 3 most powerful financial institutions in existence, the IMF, WTO and World Bank, as well as having the usual excessive influence over UNCTAD, though they (unctad) have shown some independence. Yes, the American economy is heavily dependent on foreign markets, but especially in Asia, those appear to be well under control.

So, the 4 most important ones are for the most part completely true, and the culural one is debatable. Can you think of any sign more universally recongizable than Coke or McDonads, or Mickey Mouse, or MTV? American corporate branding has left no corner of the world untouched, and is today perhaps one of the few common threads between almost all nations and all peoples.

[vyper]

Who's been voting democratic party? They're gettin quite a high percentage.

[Rictor]

I guess that would be Canadians, Americans (I know) and Europeans mostly, I've checked the detailed stats (you have to give them your email). They make up the biggest chunk of voters. Which makes sense, since these people would least be affected by US foreign policy, and so are able to safely ignore Kerry's stance on it.

[vyper]

I'm a Brit and I voted Nader.

Go figure.