Author Topic: IDF Goes into Gaza (again)  (Read 6301 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor


Alright, I understand that, but tell me one reason in the world why Israel should not withdraw outright from the West Bank and Gaza, to the Green Line? Anyone who crosses the border then can be shot on sight. Seems like a plan to me, better than ho


Possibly because that, given the past & recent history, they would view that as being tantamount to surrender to surrender.  I don't think this conflict can be solved by the actions of one side alone.   I think the Israelis, being the dominant power, are best equipped to make the first step.  But I also think the Palestinians have to make their own efforts, too.

 

Offline vyper

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
It is documented fact that Arab-Israeli peace treaties brokered by even Jews have been rejected on the notion that "by fighting we will gain more in the long term".

I wish I could remember the quote source, but I can't. The point is still valid though - this attitude is the problem.

I have no doubt you believe you're country is doing the right thing Sandwich but if you haven't already go check out 70's history and don't just accept the standard, omissive version.
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Offline Rictor

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


Possibly because that, given the past & recent history, they would view that as being tantamount to surrender to surrender.  I don't think this conflict can be solved by the actions of one side alone.   I think the Israelis, being the dominant power, are best equipped to make the first step.  But I also think the Palestinians have to make their own efforts, too.


Of course, I wasn't implying otherwise. The way I see it, it is Israel;s job to take away any legitimate reason for the Palestinians to fight them (this obviously does not include dismantling Israel or anything of the sort, and does include ending the occupation), and it the Palestinian's job to make sure than any such groups that are currently hostile do not remain so after this has happened.

If two sides are commiting equal crimes (in this case they're not, both in killings and in daily oppression Israel is far ahead, but lets give them the benefit of the doubt), I will side with the faction that has the better cause for commiting these crimes, wrong though they be. I dunno, maybe thats just me.

 

Offline aldo_14

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
I know, I just wanted to emphasise that I'm not for any side beyond that which wants peace.  Which is neither at the moment, it would seem.

 

Offline Fergus

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
People can never agree, god I hate this argument, and you know why?  Because the only way it can end is when one side is dead.  It took quite a few years for this to sink in but Palestine/Isreal is one of those "special" cases people like to call.
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Offline Rictor

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
thats bull**** and you know it. The conflict isn't even near the proportion of many historical conflicts, and they were all (fine, some) solved without one side annhiliating the other.

70% of Israelis favour a peaceful, just solution to the war, a two-state solution. And needless to say, probably the vast majority of Palestinians do as well, considering how they live now. The problem is that no one is listening to what the clear majority wants, only to arcane prophecy and selffish, mindless greed and nationalism.

 

Offline ionia23

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Israel - Palestine


Centauri - Narn


I'm sittin' this one out.
"Why does it want me to say my name?"

 
IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


Points at Northern Ireland. No. We wouldn't. The Brits tried it in the past but finally figured out that it didn't work and did something else.


Yeah they did something else all right THEY BUILT A SEPARATION FENCE/WALL!!!! W007!!!!! It works doesn’t it? But n0000oooo0oo0o EVIL Zionist NAZIS BUILDING WALL SHAME, SHAME!!!! Good god the hypocrisy present in the European condemnation of the fence is stifling.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb

 

Offline vyper

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
We built a border fence on accepted territorial lines. It was manned by the republic's army on thier side.

If you're talking about actions pre-seperation of Eire then yes, we made a few mistakes - and what worked in the end? Negotiations.

I wasn't happy when we released prisoners under the good friday agreement, but if it brought peace then so be it.

Now, you are gonna have to grow up if you want your children to live in a free and safe country - otherwise 20 years from now Sandwich is gonna be watching his future nephews man guard towers and get blown up by bigger rockets from Palestinian trucks, while Palestinian children are shot in crossfire while Israeli force launch "defensive" raids against what's left of the Palestinian people.

Force is never the sole solution.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Rictor

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
yeah. Building a wall is one thing, building a wall in someone else's territory - annexing their lands, to fence them in, while keeping control of both sides of the wall, and while their livelyhood depends on the good will of the border guards, thats called a ghetto.

 

Offline Sandwich

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Well that's the crux of the matter, ain't it? "Someone else's territory". We obviously disagree on whose territory it is, so the only response I'll give is the fact that if you repeat something enough times, it will be accepted as truth.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
yeah. Building a wall is one thing, building a wall in someone else's territory - annexing their lands, to fence them in, while keeping control of both sides of the wall, and while their livelyhood depends on the good will of the border guards, thats called a ghetto.


The Facts Mac

This fence is for security so it must follow a route that ensures security. The green line is not a security line it’s a political line. The fence is not a border; final borders will be determined only through negotiations. Its a temporary step that Israel feels compelled to take until the Palestinian authority finally puts an end to the terror being carried out with its approval and financial and moral support and enters into a comprehensive peace agreement. In 40 months the Israeli population has suffered from 20,497 acts of terrorism including stabbings bombings axing shootings car ramming car bombs kidnapping etc... Had the Palestinian leadership abided by its pledge to act against terror there would have never been any need for the fence. Since the fence was completed around the Gaza strip not a single suicide bomber has gotten past. In the parts of the west bank where the fence has been completed terrorist activates have dropped by some 50%.

The "wall" is only 20km of the total 730 planned... that is less then 3% of the total "security FENCE" and that’s only where the danger of shooting attacks require a solid structure. There’s a delicate equation here that forces Israel to weigh the freedom of movement against the right to life. It is being built with the needs of the Palestinian people in mind as much as is possible while maintaining security. The fence will include 41 gates for farmers, 11 crossing points, and 5 terminals for the transfer of goods. The security fence is temporary meant to provide self defense it can be dismantled and moved within days its a phenomenon that can be reversed unlike the deaths that have resulted from the terrorists starting this "intefada” Israel has already moved fences as a result of political agreements. That’s what it did along its borders with Egypt Jordan and Lebanon. In fact Israel moved its Lebanese border security fence no less then 12 times! The anti-terror fence is a matter of self-defense. It’s a pragmatic effective, temporary measure necessitated by endless terror attacks. When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.

 Israel has replanted more than 63,000 olive trees (the main crop of Palestinian farmers) to ensure the livelihood of the Palestinian farmers despite construction of the fence. The few and I quote "FEW" landowners affected by the construction of the fence have been offered compensations for their lands and for their harvests of the next five years. While they retain legal ownership of their property.
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Offline Flipside

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
To be honest, I don't give a flying squirrels nutsack who's land it is as long as both sides sodding well grow up stop killing each other over it :(

 

Offline vyper

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
[q]When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
[/q]
You see, that's exactly what the Palestinians are saying to you... You may want to contemplate that.

[q]We obviously disagree on whose territory it is[/q]

Dude, if everyone in the world went around claiming land on the basis of events so far back in history (or biblical) as yours.... every bloody nation on earth would be in turmoil. If your God does exist, I seriously doubt He would approve of this behaviour - especially when it results in so much suffering for the Israeli people themselves.
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Offline vyper

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
To be honest, I don't give a flying squirrels nutsack who's land it is as long as both sides sodding well grow up stop killing each other over it :(


On that note I saw a red squirrel at university the other day. Little buggers move fast! :)
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 
IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
[q]When the terror ends, so will the need for the fence.
[/q]
You see, that's exactly what the Palestinians are saying to you... You may want to contemplate that.


:lol::yes:

You want to know what they are saying to us? Please pull up a chair.

Palestinians Civilians are saying nothing to us because they are the ones who want peace as we do and if they voice that they are willing to live alongside the Jews they will be called collaborators traitors and hanged in public. Its happened hundreds of times before and it can/will happen again.

Palestinian Terrorists couldn’t give a rats tiny ass about the land as long as it’s free of Jews they don’t care who lives there. And that’s their stated resolutions and constitutions. You can read them on their online sites if you like.

And the Palestinian Authority is one of two things. 1. They want peace as well but are afraid of what the terrorist organizations will do since they are the ones with the firepower. 2. Since they are supporting the terrorists anyway you would think its pretty clear their goals are the same?

If you see on the news there is never a march for peace in the Palestinian territories there are never big rallies like there are every year of hundreds of thousands in Tel-Aviv calling for peace. Oh no the Palestinians have bigger gatherings but ones that honor dead terrorists huge marches and rallies supporting that very force that is trying to wipe us out. Hmmm nice face they are putting on.

So what do we have? The real potential peacemakers under threat of death by their own people. Terrorists in charge of pretty much all the demands and agreements taking place weather directly or indirectly with their puppets in the PA... and the PA those useless wooden figures with strings dangling about. They have even stopped condemning suicide bombings. Anyone else notice this? They now say it’s sad but its Israel’s fault and they condemn the missile strikes on terrorist leaders... And don’t say they are condemning the civilian casualty... in all the latest air strikes not ONE civilian was hurt. And they still condemn it.

If they will not be responsible and take out their own trash we will do it for them because they are making us suffer for their deficiencies or unwillingness to deal with the terrorists.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb

 

Offline Flipside

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Two Words

Saudi Arabia.

The vector, the crux, the pivot ;)

Not all of the 'Thousand Princes of Arabia' are pro-American. It's also worth noting that we must try to divide 'Terrorists' from 'Militants' the two have blended too close to be distinguishable, which is worrying.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 07:04:23 pm by 394 »

 

Offline vyper

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
You seem to be under the impression the entire world sees you as the bad guy and the Pal's as poor guys. You're seeing more in my words than I intend if that's the case.

The reason the Palestinians won't turn on thier leaders who advocate terrorism is because the alternative is demonstrated to them every time you bulldoze their homes, launch rockets down their streets and shoot their children in the middle of gun fights.

You want to disarm the militants? You can take away their biggest weapon by just restraining military action, and then put out VERY public peace feelers - then one of two things will happen:

Eventually the Palestinian people will turn against their militant leaders on the basis that there's no need for them
Or the Palestinians will throw it back in your face, and then you can call the United Nations in with peace keeping troops from the position of moral authority. The rest of the Arab world is still a bit miffed, but a lot less than if it's a purely Israeli campaign against the Palestinians.

Now, as for the issue of civilian casualties: If you're waging a war, that's conventional and follows the tactics of invading the enemy after they have attacked you - yes there will sometimes be casualties. However, you're trying to act like a police force in Gaza, and a police force can't have civilian causalites - it doesn't work that way.

[q]If they will not be responsible and take out their own trash we will do it for them because they are making us suffer for their deficiencies or unwillingness to deal with the terrorists.[/q]

How blase - not the best attitude for a man in the middle of a powder keg.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Flipside

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Well, I'm not normally one for quoting M.Moore, since a lot of his work tends to serve it's own agenda, however, in Dude, wheres my Country he makes a very valid point....

America is capable of, at less cost than the current Iraq War projections, promising and deliverig the facilities to provide clean water to every living person on the planet. How many people, do you think, would want to fly planes into their buildings if they were known for doing that, rather than such things as Pol Pot etc?

Sometimes I wonder if it is worth the old practice of looking up the leaders of the warring factions in a room 'with neither food nor sleep' till a single decision is made, either because they agree, of the strongest willed person has out-surviveved all the others ;)

Seriously though, you must not forget part of the Isreali governments reaction to Sharon wanting to remove settlers. It was no worse, no less condemning of it's own people than Palestinian reactions to those they see as 'sympathisers'. Some even called upon Israeli troops to disobey direct orders from Sharon.

There are factions on both sides that want to hate the others, no one side is to blame, that is the utter tragedy of all this. While Israel thinks it is Palestine, and Palestine thinks it is Israel, and I fear that you are no less being manipulated by your governments as we are by ours.

 

Offline Flipside

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IDF Goes into Gaza (again)
Sorry for a double post but, you see, this is the sort of thing that really gets my goat...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1514&e=13&u=/afp/20041004/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_italy_troops

If he had said 'Middle Eastern' forces, I'd have said 'Great, good idea, be thy neighbours helper'. However, he specifically states a religion. Follow this path and you end up with 'Christian Forces', 'Sikh Forces' etc etc, which is, quite frankly, a bloody scary thought.