[Splinter]

Originally posted by vyper
You seem to be under the impression the entire world sees you as the bad guy and the Pal's as poor guys. You're seeing more in my words than I intend if that's the case.

not the entire world... Just the people I debate with

Originally posted by vyper
The reason the Palestinians won't turn on thier leaders who advocate terrorism is because the alternative is demonstrated to them every time you bulldoze their homes, launch rockets down their streets and shoot their children in the middle of gun fights.

That is not the alternative in reality or even percived. that is the consequence. The alternative is demonstrated by the people up north and in the town a block away from my house. The alternative is demonstrated by arabs who have proven themseves peace seekers who are living among us with not a road block policeman or soldier in sight. My friend up north is an arab man who is serving in the police force there. his father was a man who travled for his business around the wrold and his family hold poitions in the government and law offices and medical areas around Israel... this is how his family and thousands of families like him have been living for decades. And damn the Palestinians for sending thier children out deliberatly into the middle of gun fights. No you say, in reality the soldiers are firing across a street and a kid runs out and the one guy turns to the other and says "look a smaller target" $10 say I can hit him in 3 shots

Originally posted by vyper
You want to disarm the militants? You can take away their biggest weapon by just restraining military action, and then put out VERY public peace feelers - then one of two things will happen:

Eventually the Palestinian people will turn against their militant leaders on the basis that there's no need for them
Or the Palestinians will throw it back in your face, and then you can call the United Nations in with peace keeping troops from the position of moral authority. The rest of the Arab world is still a bit miffed, but a lot less than if it's a purely Israeli campaign against the Palestinians.

1. yes because any country would be willing to stand by and let thier civilians be murdered so that the people attacking can get a clue and maybe grow a consience. suuuure. thats not unreasonable. hey USA you were attacked on 911 but hey listen dont retaliate then the taliban would have stoped and said. "hey they didnt fight back oh man we are so sorry. we were only doing it to make trouble not because we wanted to kill the infadels!" Maybe they would have, but after how many more attacks costing how many more lives?  

Originally posted by vyper
Now, as for the issue of civilian casualties: If you're waging a war, that's conventional and follows the tactics of invading the enemy after they have attacked you - yes there will sometimes be casualties. However, you're trying to act like a police force in Gaza, and a police force can't have civilian causalites - it doesn't work that way.

how can you wage a conventional war against a terrorist orginazation that resides at home with thier families?!!?!?1 seriously?! they dont have an army so who will we fight? they dont have bases outside public areas so what will we bomb? they dont want a conventional war they target civilians. but what the hell. since we cant wage conventional war well just let them on thier way.

Originally posted by vyper
[q]If they will not be responsible and take out their own trash we will do it for them because they are making us suffer for their deficiencies or unwillingness to deal with the terrorists.[/q]

How blase - not the best attitude for a man in the middle of a powder keg.

Somtimes the simplest explanation is the hardest to swollow.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Flipside
Seriously though, you must not forget part of the Isreali governments reaction to Sharon wanting to remove settlers. It was no worse, no less condemning of it's own people than Palestinian reactions to those they see as 'sympathisers'. Some even called upon Israeli troops to disobey direct orders from Sharon.

There are factions on both sides that want to hate the others, no one side is to blame, that is the utter tragedy of all this. While Israel thinks it is Palestine, and Palestine thinks it is Israel, and I fear that you are no less being manipulated by your governments as we are by ours.

lol they arnt protesting the pullout because its a pain to palestinians to ahve them their. They are protesting the pullout because they have been there farming that land for longer then the states of Israel has existed. they bought the land 7 decades ago and worked it. the arabs called them crazy and called the land "cursed" now its a leading producer in agricultural technologies. when the arabs saw the fruit of the settlers labour so many years ago they blessed them and praised them for reviving a dead land they swarmed in by the hundreds of thousands seeking the jobs that were suddenly created. most of the settlers families have been in the gazaa strip area for longer then the palestinians that are now there. THAT is why they feel betrayed by this disengagment plan.

[Bobboau]

well you'r going to have to make a few sacrifices on your own side, a hundred or so pissed farmers seems like a small price to pay. you think that's not fair, well, there's lots of stuff that isn't fair in this conflict, I have hopes for this, they put up a fence/wall/baracade of unholy doom/whateveryouwanttocallit, say screw you guys, were drawing the line, the palistinians have had plenty of time to sweet talk were they want the line draw, from what I've seen that line isn't too far off the old one, Israel gets a mile or so so they can say "we won", and the palastinians can stew in there new nation untill getting mowed down at the wall loses it's luster.

does anyone have an up to date map o ware the wall is, I remember a few months ago a map were it showed were it was (and showed a 'totaly unbiased I'm sure' projection that had it jet out into the west bank at a 90 degree angle, lets see how acurate that was)

[vyper]

[q]hey USA you were attacked on 911[/q]

DEAR GOD MAN! Have you not realized WHY  the damned yanks were attacked that day? THEY ****ED OVER HALF THE MIDDLE EAST AND 2ND/3RD WORLD FOR YEARS -  even a worm will turn on an agressor no matter the consequences - you can't just blast the palestinians out of the way YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY THINK.

[Bobboau]

yeah, it was our fault, we brought it on our selves

[Mongoose]

Originally posted by Bobboau
yeah, it was our fault, we brought it on our selves

That had seriously better be sarcasm...

Sandwich/Splinter, I hope your government keeps doing whatever it has to until those bastards wake up and figure out that blowing themselves up in shopping malls is not too smart.  Until then, I'm very glad that my country, at least, supports what you're doing .

[aldo_14]

People always miss the simple point; violence begets violence.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by aldo_14
People always miss the simple point; violence begets violence.

I aint arguing however in this case with this types of people peace begets weakness and they attack even more. look at the history here its happened time and time again we are going to be attacked weather we retaliate or not..  might as well get rid of a few of the terrorists as long as they are giving us the excusse eh? at this rate the will be gone long before we are now we just have to wait for them to realise it... oh wait. they do! they just dont care.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by vyper
[q]hey USA you were attacked on 911[/q]

DEAR GOD MAN! Have you not realized WHY  the damned yanks were attacked that day? THEY ****ED OVER HALF THE MIDDLE EAST AND 2ND/3RD WORLD FOR YEARS -  even a worm will turn on an agressor no matter the consequences - you can't just blast the palestinians out of the way YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY THINK.

ok lets just say you are right. which i dont actually agree with.

so the us deserved that atack? so in reality the people in those countries that were wrongedc shouldnt have said USA we want peace treties we want talks. they were right to bomb the crap out of people who had nothing to do with thier overseas problem. yes I see your logic....

[Clave]

I blame the following:

The UN

The USA

Russia

The UK

The simple fact is that in 1947/48 when this started to kick off, so many people could have intervened and did not.  The UN created Israel, not God.  And pretty much every day and every year since that decision was taken, there has been violence and mayhem.

Israel was created as a religious state, which means that it could have been created somewhere else, not right in the centre of a group of hostile Arab nations....

But what's done is done.  The only way forward is negotiation.....

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Splinter


I aint arguing however in this case with this types of people peace begets weakness and they attack even more. look at the history here its happened time and time again we are going to be attacked weather we retaliate or not..  might as well get rid of a few of the terrorists as long as they are giving us the excusse eh? at this rate the will be gone long before we are now we just have to wait for them to realise it... oh wait. they do! they just dont care.

Peace is peace, not weakness.  The only people that view peace as weakness are those that do not know it.

Of course, if military action is so effective at getting rid of terrorists, why hasn't it worked yet, eh?  Maybe because you're creating martyrs to their cause?

[Ghostavo]

@Splinter

If someone decides to mess with a foreign power, they are bound to get hammered (lightly or heavily) some times... mess with half of the world's foreign powers and... well... about every country in the world has learnt this except a very few... I can only think of one country in the world that hasn't learnt the last part of that statement and I don't think I need to say which.

When speaking of the USA, one wants to say the USA Government. So IMHO the USA (government) deserved to be attacked... the USA's people... that's a completly diferent story.

Other countries governments have as much right to "bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their overseas problems" just as much as the USA has the right to bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their problems... see a similarity?

To get back on topic, I think the UN should muster what is left of their balls and simply grab Palestine and Israel's territory and declare both countries to be "UN's property" and then form some little protectorades for both sides.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Clave
I blame the following:

The UN

The USA

Russia

The UK

The simple fact is that in 1947/48 when this started to kick off, so many people could have intervened and did not.  The UN created Israel, not God.  And pretty much every day and every year since that decision was taken, there has been violence and mayhem.

Israel was created as a religious state, which means that it could have been created somewhere else, not right in the centre of a group of hostile Arab nations....

But what's done is done.  The only way forward is negotiation.....

umm nooo if Israel was a religious state wholey then it deffinetly coudlnt have been put anywhere eslse because Israel is the only holy place for jews.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Peace is peace, not weakness.  The only people that view peace as weakness are those that do not know it.

Of course, if military action is so effective at getting rid of terrorists, why hasn't it worked yet, eh?  Maybe because you're creating martyrs to their cause?

maybe we are talking out of experience. maybe we know that every time peace is brokered there is a brief stop in the violence while they gather forces and then when they are strong enough or think they are they attack again. sorry dude but im right. im not saying that peace in our eyes is weakness dont misunderstand that is in fact our highest goal... but in the eyes of the terrorists us declaring a peace and havign peace is a sign that we are giving up that we are defeated... I suggest you study thier mentality on the issue its quite fascinating.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Ghostavo
@Splinter

If someone decides to mess with a foreign power, they are bound to get hammered (lightly or heavily) some times... mess with half of the world's foreign powers and... well... about every country in the world has learnt this except a very few... I can only think of one country in the world that hasn't learnt the last part of that statement and I don't think I need to say which.

When speaking of the USA, one wants to say the USA Government. So IMHO the USA (government) deserved to be attacked... the USA's people... that's a completly diferent story.

Other countries governments have as much right to "bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their overseas problems" just as much as the USA has the right to bomb the crap out of people who have nothing to do with their problems... see a similarity?

To get back on topic, I think the UN should muster what is left of their balls and simply grab Palestine and Israel's territory and declare both countries to be "UN's property" and then form some little protectorades for both sides.

roight well maybe ill let somone from the US argue with you about what the US governemtn deserves etc etc...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Splinter


maybe we are talking out of experience. maybe we know that every time peace is brokered there is a brief stop in the violence while they gather forces and then when they are strong enough or think they are they attack again. sorry dude but im right. im not saying that peace in our eyes is weakness dont misunderstand that is in fact our highest goal... but in the eyes of the terrorists us declaring a peace and havign peace is a sign that we are giving up that we are defeated... I suggest you study thier mentality on the issue its quite fascinating.

You're not going for peace with terrorists, you're going for peace with Palestinians in general.  Ceasefires are not peace* - peace is an equitable solution that removes the cause of the terrorists and the public support that keeps them in business.

*they're a delay, a lull, temporary by nature.

[Splinter]

yeah peace with the palestinian people that fine and dandy so we get peace with them and open up the borders and what changes? now they have a state that is letting terrorists throught our borders they still do nothing about it and the terrorists are still trying to whipe us out. and NOW they are a state so we declare war and boom a whole new war era starts... blah blah. dude first the terrorists go then theres peace. they need to show they will take care of the terrorists otherwise what asurances do we have that we can let them have a state and they will be responsible enough to take care of the terrorists? besides that emans civil war arab vs arab like in jordan or somthing.

They need to show us they will take care of the terrorists by starting now. theres not much besides that to be done

[Ghostavo]

By that statement I assume you would have encouraged Spain invading France just because the ETA was based in France...

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Splinter
yeah peace with the palestinian people that fine and dandy so we get peace with them and open up the borders and what changes? now they have a state that is letting terrorists throught our borders they still do nothing about it and the terrorists are still trying to whipe us out. and NOW they are a state so we declare war and boom a whole new war era starts... blah blah. dude first the terrorists go then theres peace. they need to show they will take care of the terrorists otherwise what asurances do we have that we can let them have a state and they will be responsible enough to take care of the terrorists? besides that emans civil war arab vs arab like in jordan or somthing.

They need to show us they will take care of the terrorists by starting now. theres not much besides that to be done

They can't go after the terrorists because the Palestinian people support the terrorists, because Israel marches in with tanks going against the terrorists.

(and, of course, the likes of Hamas also play a political / charitable role within Palestine, which makes Israel look even more the enemy when they do attack Hamas, and this thus boosts Hamas by strengthening resentment towards Israel)

you're making a remarkable number of unfounded statements there, anyways.  How do you know that a) they can currently go after the terrorists (with the current poverty and poor infrastructure in the Palestinian territories)? b) the terrorists would continue to attack after an equitable peace was established? c) there would be some form of civil war in Palestine?

What you've done, is made the worst possible assumptions about the Palestinians and treated them as such.  Which, when in turn replicated by government, has removed any moral superiority Israel did have, and turned many moderate nations against them.

It's blatantly obvious the military 'solution' isn't one.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by aldo_14


They can't go after the terrorists because the Palestinian people support the terrorists, because Israel marches in with tanks going against the terrorists.

(and, of course, the likes of Hamas also play a political / charitable role within Palestine, which makes Israel look even more the enemy when they do attack Hamas, and this thus boosts Hamas by strengthening resentment towards Israel)

well now its back to who started what first? did the terrorist attack Israel first? or did Israel march in and kill terrorists first?

Originally posted by aldo_14
you're making a remarkable number of unfounded statements there, anyways.  How do you know that a) they can currently go after the terrorists (with the current poverty and poor infrastructure in the Palestinian territories)? b) the terrorists would continue to attack after an equitable peace was established? c) there would be some form of civil war in Palestine?

were talking past example here we funded and provided training and weapons for the PAs police force what did they do 1. some did nothing. 2. some gave the wepaons and helped trian the terrorists. so yes they have had the chance to deal with the terrorirsts when they were full able and equipped and they chose to support them instead.

Yes the terrorists would continue to attack I suggest before coming into an argument you try to study the credo of each opposing side and listen to what they want... the palestinian people want a state. the Palestinian terrorists want dead jews. I suggest visitng hezbola hamas islamic jihad fatah and all thems online websites they have it right there in thier "purpose" area of thier pages.

yeah civil war... if the PA now try and take care of the terrorists it would be civil war... whats so hard about that? you think the terrorists would just give in?!