[ionia23]

Actually, yes I do.  Kerry is intelligent.  Bush is popular.  That's what this boiled down to.

And yes, it is brain damage.  The 'new' Republican has emerged as an abrasive, racist bully that really needs the everloving **** beat out of him.

You cannot sell me on the concept that Camp Dubya gave two flying ****s about a bunch of dead Iraqis.  They didn't have to.  Their lives aren't worth as much as an American one to them.  9/11 happens on a daily basis over there and it's barely front-page news, but it happens here and the whole freakin' world goes to ****.

Consequently, the humanitarian angle goes right out the window too.  A pathetic excuse for a fighting force in Iraq, and none whatsoever in Sierra-Leone.  If you're going to be selling out the lives of our soldiers, make sure there's a damned good reason for it.

Dubya works on fear, just like any school bully does.  As long as the focus can be kept on an enemy 'over there', you never have to worry about what's going on 'over here'.

more to the point, that feckless thug blurs the lines between Church and State way too damned much.  As soon as that line is crossed you become Iran.

[Shrike]

Kazan, calm down.

[Akalabeth Angel]

First of all, you guys need to cool down and grow up. If you want a debate, fine. Attack the arguments, don't attack eachother. Calling Moongoose a "motherf*****" is just childish and immature".

    As for Iraq, no one is saying that Saddam was a good guy, but that doesn't change the fact that there was no basis to invade Iraq. Remember that Saddam Hussein is a leader that the US once supported, they sold him the WMD that he used on the Kurds and the Iranians, Dick Cheney was shaking his hand in the 80's.

    If anyone supports the Bush Administration because of the 'moral authority' in which it invaded Iraq, I believe that you're mis-informed. The US didn't invade Iraq to help out the people of Iraq, that's simply naive, they did it to help themselves and probably to help Israel as well (for those of religious leaning).

    During and since the war, the US has detained prisoners without charge in Cuba, they've paraded Iraqi prisoners and their dead on TV (only to complain when Al-Jazeera did it a few days later), the US states WMD as a the primary reason for their invading, even though the US still stockpiles thousands of nukes, and thousands of tons of all kinds of other **** like Anthrax and god knows what else. And on top of that they're probably the country to have used WMD the most, the only ones to use nukes on a civilian population (twice) and they dumped tons of Agent Orange on Vietnam and are killing children to this day. The US complains about the treatment of their POWs, and then shoves brooms up the a**** of Iraqi prisoners like good ole Ralph in Lord of the Flies (or whatever else they were doing). During the war they murder journalists (Al Jazeera) and they try to censor any media outlet which isn't spoon-fed information by the US military, etcetera.

         And as Kazan has said, Iraq had no WMD. Hell they had no military to speak of in the first place. People should know that WMDs aren't bullets that you can put in a hole and dig out later, chemicals like Anthrax and other stuff which the US sold to Iraq has a shelf-life and will turn to crap after a few years. Unless Iraq had the means to re-produce more, they probably didn't have any.

         When Colin power addressed the UN, he stated "oh, there's some WMD trucks". The US' own CIA stated they were milk trucks and laughed it off. Colin claimed that some building was a WMD factory, it turned out to be some striped empty shell. If the US knew where there were WMDs they would have got them and stopped them going into Syria.

          As for al-qaeda links, Iraq was the most secular country in the middle-east. Al-Qaeda _hated_ them, they're muslim extermists or whatever. Do you think muslims would buddy up to some american-esque secular society? I don't think so.

          Anyways, if you think the US cares about the people so much. Look at Afghanistan. Where the government's control ends at Kabul's city limits and the rest of the country is ruled by warlords. Is the worth of a person proportional to the amount of oil in their country???

[Bobboau]

ok I just want to touch on the Iraq-AlQeda thing,
Bin Laden founded Al Qeda becase of the gulf war and the subseqent stationing of US troops in the area around Iraq (in Saudi Arabia). over the years Sadam consistently thumbed his nose at the US, this made him quite popular amung the people of the world who hate America. as you said, in the 80s we allied ourselves with Sadam despite him being an 'evil atheist socalist' and our nation was run by ronald Regan, when you have a common enemy it becomes quite easy to teem up with someone you would otherwise hate.

[Sandwich]

*finger hovers*

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Bobboau
ok I just want to touch on the Iraq-AlQeda thing,
Bin Laden founded Al Qeda becase of the gulf war and the subseqent stationing of US troops in the area around Iraq (in Saudi Arabia). over the years Sadam consistently thumbed his nose at the US, this made him quite popular amung the people of the world who hate America. as you said, in the 80s we allied ourselves with Sadam despite him being an 'evil atheist socalist' and our nation was run by ronald Regan, when you have a common enemy it becomes quite easy to teem up with someone you would otherwise hate.

Nice idea but lacking on the execution. There were no links between Bin Laden and Saddam.

If there were I have to ask why have the CIA and MI6 not been able to produce a single credible link in the last 3 years? Seriously. Not one.

[Rictor]

Well, he did give money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, buts what is implicit when Bush says "terrorists" or "a connection to 9/11" is al Queda. Secondly, Hamas and their kind don't really attack American targets, so it could not be considered a threat to national security, even if he was working with them. And given how often the IDF bulldozes the houses of the families of suspected suicide bombers,  the arguement could be made that the money is just balancing the equation and not actively supporting terrorism, since the families themselves haven't done anything wrong and in many cases don't even know what the person was up to..

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma


Nice idea but lacking on the execution. There were no links between Bin Laden and Saddam.

If there were I have to ask why have the CIA and MI6 not been able to produce a single credible link in the last 3 years? Seriously. Not one.

There is no Al-Queda, not in the sense of some overreaching international Islamist terrorist network.  It was created on a base of lies/uproven statements from a 'defector' - a man who had stole from bin-Ladin, and became a witness for a US trial (with a multi-hundred-thousan dollar payoff)... this trial was when bin Laden was tried in his absence in March 2001 for involvement in the Nairobi embassy bombings.  In order to do this - under the anti-organised crime laws - the US needed to establish an 'organisation' to try bin-Ladin.

Hence the concept of Al-queda was created.... even the name al-queda didn't exist prior to that trial, Bin-Laden himself never used it until post-September 11 (because by then - and now - the concept has become a key propaganda tool for both Islamic fundamentalism and neo-conservatism.  But what al-queda is, is a loose collection of independent terrorist-stroke-Islamist groups funded - but not orchestrated - by Bin Ladin.  The 9/11 plot itself was masterminded by another man.  Likewise the Madrid attack, the Bali bomb - independent Islamist terrorists, possibly funded or loosely affiliated to Bin Ladin.

Ok, so what of the terrorist training camps?  Well, they weren't... not in the sense of international terrorism.  Many of those who trained there were training to fight for an Islamic revolution in their own or neightbouring countries - ala Afghanistan.   In other words, not to attack foreign countries such as the US. (NB: the whole idea of international terrorism RE: Islamism was to stimulate mass uprising - an Islamic revolution - by 'inspiring' the masses by attacking high-visibility foreign countries whole cultural influences were corrupting 'Islamic' morals).  And, of course, man or most of those died in the war in Afghanistan.

and there's not even been many arrests of 'al-queda' members.... in the UK more convictions have made on connections to Irish than Islamic terrorism... of something like 664 al-Queda suspects, only a tiny number (3?) were convicted, and for fund-raising.   In the US, one group of Yemenis were convicted of 'planning to attack America' because they were playing paintball.  alleged terror cells in New York and buffalo were nothing of the sort, and the evidence was virtually inconsequential.  IIRC there have been no convictions of al-Queda members for actually planning an attack.

Or course, the myth has now become so pervasive it is itself a weapon... possibly it's even begun the impetus to create the al-Queda that was dreamed up.  But I don't think al-queda is currently anything beyond a fundraising method for independent groups, and AFAIK there isn;t any concrete evidence to support some super-organized massive terrorist network.

NB: this is being recited as close as I can remember to the programme 'the Power of Nightmares' from BBC2 last night.  You'd do well to track down a bittorrent link, it's pretty shocking stuff.  Seriously, track it down (if you can) before responding.

[Rictor]

lalalala

don't mind me

[aldo_14]

cheers

[karajorma]

Originally posted by aldo_14
NB: this is being recited as close as I can remember to the programme 'the Power of Nightmares' from BBC2 last night.  You'd do well to track down a bittorrent link, it's pretty shocking stuff.  Seriously, track it down (if you can) before responding.

Seen it. I just wasn't going to type that all in for the benifit of those who hadn't seen it

You'll note that I said that there were no links between Bin Laden (the man) and Saddam rather than mentioning Al-Queda at all.

Rictor I was about to reccomend you in particular hunted down a copy of that show cause I knew you'd enjoy it

[Lightspeed]

Originally posted by karajorma

You'll note that I said that there were no links between Bin Laden (the man) and Saddam rather than mentioning Al-Queda at all.
 

Bin Laden and Saddam were enemies. However, the Bin Laden family financially supported Bush and Co. Now here's where a link does indeed exist.

[aldo_14]

Aha!

Bin Ladin friends support Bush.  Bush (snr) supported Saddam prior to 1st Gulf War.  that's the connection!

[Kazan]

Originally posted by Shrike
Kazan, calm down.

I will Absolutely not - I am NOT going to take my country being turned into a theocracy sitting

[aldo_14]

I find it quite uncomfy to type standing up, myself.

[Lightspeed]

While shouting and insulting may not be the way, Kazan is absolutely right.

[Flipside]

Agreed. To simply accept it is to condone it.

[Kazan]

shouting insults is a much better way of venting my righteous rage than some other things i could do

[aldo_14]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

(I don't know why.  Seemed appropriate for some reason)

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Kazan


I will Absolutely not - I am NOT going to take my country being turned into a theocracy sitting

then do something about it man, sitting here yelling at us about it isn't going to change anything.