[Cobra]

That I didn't know. And did this place get upgraded??? Everything looks smaller. Oh, highlight a big grin It looks like a monkey.

[Roanoke]

You guys ralise this is totally academic (re: pointless) ? As you'll never see a Sath against a Cube, and if you did see some sort of conversion, all the fanboys would rip it apart anyway.

[Getter Robo G]

I posted it 2 years ago (shivan fleet versus borg fleet).. it was 50/50  Besides with FSU you will see it again. This time you will know for sure (no arguments) cause "hard" data will be used to make the weapon/shield values. Only total fanboy ******s will have a problem with the results. But then again when do we ever care about them?

[Pnakotus]

Right  I'll do that next time I contradict you; for now, I'm saying your flat out wrong.  And a fanboy to boot; take that as you will.

Firstly, FS beam cannon have short range (4-5kms) and no reliable numbers for yield (apart from potentially the fs2 intro, but the misplacing of the cannon makes it a bit dodgey).  Of course we know Lucy killed VP, something ISDs can do by themselves.  I *am* interested to know why you believe they penetrate shields; I know ingame some damage bleeds through fighter shields, but there ARE no canonical cap shields, so who's to say?

Further, the borg adaption had been ridiculously inflated.  In FC, using weapons the borg had 'adapted' to long before, Starfleet was able to beat the **** out of a cube, cripple its power systems, etc.  The battle also shows how effective deep penetrating strikes to critical systems can be; what do you think a beam cannon will do to the ductwork?  Shouldn't 'adapation' have rendered those phasers ineffective?  SHOCK!

And again, Borg cubes are lightwieght unarmoured structures.  We've seen inside; its full of cavernous void spaces.  Comparing it to a heavily-armoured starship the size of manhattan with literally thousands of hundred-gigaton cannons is ridiculous.  Even comparing it in terms of mass is ludicrous; a borg cube (some of them, anyway) is 3x3x3km, an SSD is 17.6kms long, and NOT largely hollow and lightly constructed.

Case in point, moron-wise; you claim that photon beam cannons punch through shields regardless of type.  I ask for evidence they punch through ST or SW or Robotech shields... and we discover its groundless speculation!

[Cobra]

Originally posted by Pnakotus

Further, the borg adaption had been ridiculously inflated.  In FC, using weapons the borg had 'adapted' to long before, Starfleet was able to beat the **** out of a cube, cripple its power systems, etc.  The battle also shows how effective deep penetrating strikes to critical systems can be; what do you think a beam cannon will do to the ductwork?  Shouldn't 'adapation' have rendered those phasers ineffective?  SHOCK!

Reference to Star Trek: First Contact: Picard new where to shoot the **** out of it.

And again, Borg cubes are lightwieght unarmoured structures.  We've seen inside; its full of cavernous void spaces.

The cube is filled with deactivated Borg, IIRC.

[Pnakotus]

Cobra, I think you've missed the gist of my points.  In the first, the fact that SF could damage the cube at all indicates that Borg adaptive shielding limits are less than however many ships were in FC, but more than the output of the E-D.  Further, my comments about cube construction were directed at 'N1ghtm1r's remarks that cubes have huge mass; they're largely empty and made of plumbing.  Not solid metal, no heavy armour, etc.  He must now provide evidence to support his huge mass argument.

[EDIT} - Spelling.

[Carl]

Originally posted by Pnakotus
Starfleet was able to beat the **** out of a cube, cripple its power systems, etc.

it's not as simple as you're implying. it's not just:

Cube gets hit by phaser a few times

Cube adapts

All phasers in the universe now have little or no effect on all borg ships in the universe.

if you change the frequency of the phaser from  600nm to 610 nm, it must adapt to that frequency as well, and if you go from 600nm to 620 nm, it is more effective because the frequency difference is greater. and each cube has to adapt independently.

[Pnakotus]

In FC, SF using only known-to-borg, previously adapted-to weaponary (like the phasers you say are useless, even though they always work once or twice), were able to kick the **** out of the cube.  This is in the movie.  It means the borg adaptive shield cannot sustain that kind of bombardment.  We see phasers and torps blow big holes in the cube, we hear reports of serious damage, and they dig a fricking hole to China in the side.  Are phasers still useless?

I don't understand this Superman attitude.  Sure, a cube can shrug off E-D firepower or VOY firepower after adapting to the built-in weaknesses of phasers, but why assume it can resist a whole fleet?  We have an answer, and the answer is 'no it can't'.  Before anyone brings it up, Wolf 359 involved Mirandas, for chrissakes, and FC was after the Dominion war militarisation, so the fleet was obviously superior.

What about weapons without a coherent frequency?  Like particle beams, nuclear weapons, biological weapons, etc?  I assume the borg have 'regular' shields as opposed to the adaptive ones, but I've no idea how good they are.  We know they don't handle physical impacts well, probably because of this lack of a frequency to adapt to.  Of course, beam cannons, being (as far as I can tell) coherent beams of light, may have a coherent frequency, rendering them less useful vs the borg.

[NGTM-1R]

The ship from First Contact was from a different part of the Collective which was stated at least once.

Starfleet beat it because the Borg can adapt, but not when constantly taking fire. They need some time, though small, to make the adjustment. With the number of ships shooting at it, the Cube was taking continous fire and could not take the time to adapt the shields. I would also hazard the guess that at some point they lost their shield generators. This was a running battle that had been going on for some time, after all, and the Cube is pretty beat up by the time the Enterprize-E shows up.

One could make the argument that the Lucifer's shield functions much like those of the Borg do. Actually, you could say it works better, since it's just flat-out invinicible. One of the main reason behind development of the photon beam cannon was that such a weapon punched right through shields, including the type of shield the Lucifer had.

Borg ships are known for their incredible level of redundant systems. They can fight on when missing huge chunks of their hulls, as witnessed by what happened to the cube in First Contact. As also witnessed in First Contact, they have very tough hull plating.

And from where do you get this "huge voids" idea? Reference "Best of Both Worlds", the interior of a Borg ship is a maze of cramped corridors. First Contact is actually the interior of the Enterprize-E's engine room, not a true Borg creation.

[Cobra]

...... But have you seen the first two episodes of DS9? Emissary Part 1 and 2? In #1, the prologue part I mean, the Borg Cube commanded by Locoutis (Picard) at Wolf 359 was practically impervious to Starfleet weapons!

I'm probably missing the point again, but I can never get the point on the 'Net.

[Getter Robo G]

Where fore ought thou OMNISCAPER!?

Chants: "Connie Connie Connie!"

[Omniscaper]

I'll release it to you or anyone else who with the skills if you implement it's weapons and shields. I'm swamped with paying work and end of year studio exhibit and reviews for my art school.

[Getter Robo G]

Just send it to [email protected] Come hell or high water it will be done! ( I got about 3-4 people I can bother)...

[jc4jc]

Man all this looks great. I only wise there was a download of all your work. I don't mean forum style down loads I mean a website with "here is the new bad boy with textures and table updates on all ships."

[Cobra]

Duuuuuude, Omniscaper's Sovereign is seriously cool!

[jc4jc]

I'm having some trouble with the Galaxy class, It won't fire it's weapons thus getting is butt kicked..Can anyone tell me why. I have the offical 3.6 biuld released a while back. I'm still whating on fred3.6 to come out.

[Deathstorm V2]

Thinking about ST ships, has anyone made a decent Defiant yet?

I prefer the Nebula, but I like the Defiant's style.

BTW: That Con looks great, just great.

[TrashMan]

Arguing about different universes clashing together is redicolous.

Even arguin about ST alone is redicolous, since it'a allso full of plot/logic holes...

but anyway, the Connie and the Sovereign have one huge flaw in their design. As opposed to a Galaxy, the nacelles are connected to the hull with a very thin, allmost tube-like part.

It's soooo easy to blow off the nacelles (allways managed that in BC).

[Carl]

Originally posted by Deathstorm V2
I prefer the Nebula, but I like the Defiant's style.

interestingly enough, the original design for the Defiant was recycled and became the nebula. bit of trivia there no one cares about.

[Deathstorm V2]

Interesting.  How long ago did they plan the Defiant then?

The Neb appeared in first or second season TNG, but the Defiant didn't appear 'till end of DS9 season 4 (IIRC).  Seems very early to me.

Another bit of trivia:  The Defiant was originally going to be a Valiant-class starship, until "The Search" established that it was the first of its class.