Author Topic: The world and it's two paths  (Read 4193 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
The world and it's two paths
This is just a personal opinion I came up with today, and in no way am I saying you should agree with it.

I think that George Bush is the culmination of what the world has led up to until this point.

Now, before you flame me, read on. What I'm saying is that I think George W. Bush is the result of a predictable cycle, concluding in the world having to make a choice between two things: leaving religion mostly behind, and continuing forward, or accepting religion into everyone's everday lives, and basically going back to pre-industrial revolution times, at least socially.

Basically, if it wasn't George Bush now, then it would be someone later. The simple fact of the matter is that George Bush and what is happening right now is not some anomaly, but a direct result of hundreds of years.

I don't know what the world will do, I  can't predict it, but I hope it chooses the path of freedom from religion.

Comments?

  

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
The world and it's two paths
Since when does giving up religion constitute "moving forward"?  In my eyes, it entails a massive step in the wrong direction.

And yes Kazan, I'm waiting for your usual spiel...

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
The world and it's two paths
Religion dictates boundaries, that may seem fine and well if you are happy with those boundaries and afraid of what may lay beyond them, which is, with all respect, America in a Nutshell.

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
The world and it's two paths
I wouldn't say it is as much to do with "being afraid" with what lies outside imposed boundaries, not for me at least.  It's the belief that such activities/ideas will be detrimental to all of human society.

 

Offline Gank

  • 27
Re: The world and it's two paths
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
Now, before you flame me, read on. What I'm saying is that I think George W. Bush is the result of a predictable cycle, concluding in the world having to make a choice between two things: leaving religion mostly behind, and continuing forward, or accepting religion into everyone's everday lives, and basically going back to pre-industrial revolution times, at least socially.


How in gods name did you come up with this theory? Because saying people are going to either give up religion or go back to the medievel ages because of one man whose religious beliefs have absolutly no effect on the 5.7 billion people outside your countries sounds kinda stupid.

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
The world and it's two paths
I did not mean not beliving religion anymore, I mean taking it off the books. As in our government would be ruled by what is right and what is best for the people, not what goes against a specific religious priniciple.

Think about it. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay. YOU may find it personally disgusting and wrong, but you don't have any right to make people believe the same thing.
However, religion is what's making us have this big fuss about gay rights. If we went for what was written down in the constitution, they should have the same rights.

Same thing with science. Many fields of science are closed due to religious interference. Abortion, safe sex, etc, are all condoned by the Catholic Church.


Now, I admit that some religious boundaries, say, "Thou shalt not kill" are a good idea, but then again, every functional society has to have several basic laws to govern it. Not to mention that the constitution, if I remember correctly, states that every human has the right to life, liberty, and happiness. Therefore, that particular tenant was written in the constitution as a basic human right, and not a specific religious commandment, even though it may have sprung forth from religious thinking.

 

Offline vyper

  • 210
  • The Sexy Scotsman
The world and it's two paths
On the issue of religion and it's role in the future: Religion existed due to people's need for answers to impossible questions. It gave meaning to death, suffering and more importantly life.

However, as man evolves he finds more rational and fulfilling ways to answer such questions. Answers that don't need any supernatural influece to work.

It is simply logical that as we evolve socially, learning more about our existence and the universe that we will cease to require, nigh want, what we today see as religion.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
The world and it's two paths
I love how Americans can confuse "America" and "The world" with such ease.
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
The world and it's two paths
I disagree with the above statement. Man will never be able to completely disregard religion. It's here to stay, whether we like it or not. I'm saying that if we are to continue to evolve, socially, then our religion(s) must evolve with us. They can't hold to the same principles that were written down in their various books even before the pencil was invented.
There are some religions that are adapted to the new world, but in order for us to move forward, the mainstream religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism must adapt to the changing world around them. It's as simple as that: humanity can not be held back by pretenses that existed before the New World was even discovered.


EDIT: And don't bring anti-american sentiments into this thread. Whether you like it or not, this is not just America, this is a global trend, a global concern, and a global choice.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
The world and it's two paths
The thing is that when religion and politics interact, the outcome is practically never an improvement. Modern History will tell you as much, look at the disaster the Middle East was making of itself through Theocracy before the West even started helping it along. Look at the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Hunts and numerous other such tragedies.

These tragedies happened because of Government policy that was based on the fears and suspicions fed to them by religion. Most of those 'fears' etc were mainly to keep 'curing people' to God, rather than medicine.

In this enlightened age, we understand what they were ignorant of. Who is to say what of our own ignorance we will have uncovered in 500 years time?

 

Offline vyper

  • 210
  • The Sexy Scotsman
The world and it's two paths
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.

    Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline ZylonBane

  • The Infamous
  • 29
The world and it's two paths
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
I'm saying that if we are to continue to evolve, socially, then our religion(s) must evolve with us.
If you mean the way the appendix evolved along with us, then yes.
ZylonBane's opinions do not represent those of the management.

 

Offline Black Wolf

  • Twisted Infinities
  • 212
  • Hey! You! Get off-a my cloud!
    • Visit the TI homepage!
The world and it's two paths
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target

EDIT: And don't bring anti-american sentiments into this thread. Whether you like it or not, this is not just America, this is a global trend, a global concern, and a global choice.


You know what? Screw being nice.

What the hell do you think you know about global trends? When was the last time you left your own country? Some quick trip up to Canada maybe? I'm sure your horizons are broad enough to take in the entire world's perspective? Let me ask you something - when was the last time you saw an article on the TV news about something happening in Australia? You might have heard about the train derailment the other day, maybe the big drug bust last week, probably the election a month or two ago. If that. And (maybe) from these, you've decided that the problems facing your country must logically be faced in my country as well. And not just my country, on no. You've decided it's happening in every single country on the face of the bloody planet.

Let's talk about that election I mentioned. There were actually a lot of parallels with the American election - a fairly tight race, a surprisingly clear victory for the incumbent, and the slightly more conservative party (Ironically called the Liberals) ended up in power. But was there any talk of splitting up the country? Of course not - because here, we've learned how to get along, how to let anyone who wants to go to church and read their particular bible do so without letting it interfere with the government. But, of course, you know best. This is just a country you've probably never visited, it's obviously that your own countries screwed up problems occur here too, right?

But hell, maybe Australia's an isolated incident - who knows - every other country on the planet except Australia could be full to the brim of fundamentally split populations. Oh, and New Zealand. And pretty much the rest of the islands in the pacific. Let's try something crazy and think about things happening on another continent. India. India is one of the worlds largest countries, and it's predominantly Hindu. AFAIK (though if anyone has any evidence to the contrary, I'd be more than open to hearing it) India has never been run by religious ruler. Ever. These days, there's nobody pressing for "Strict Hindu Law" or whatever - the Indians are gradually adapting their traditions for the modern world - take, for example, the role of the elderly. In the past, people over 50 or 60 would give their home and property away to their children, then basically sit around waiting to die, so that they could be reborn. The Indian government hasn't been beset by hordes of people trying them to make this law, nor by people trying to outlaw it. They're encouraging their elderly not to do this, to take a more active role in later life. They don't need to legislate it either way, but gradually their traditions are adapting. They're also gradually eroding away the caste system - this began through general social liberalization, and was helped along by government laws preventing people from discriminating against people on a caste basis. They didn't try to abolish the system, nor did they try to legislate it into law. Things just start to adapt to the modern world (NB - I'm 95% sure about this stuff, but I'm basing it off what I've learned through the media and talking to people - the insights of someone who's lived there like (I think) Singh would be most appreciated)

But hell, what do I know. I'm just a crazy foreigner.



BTW, if you're wondering why I'm so pissed off, it's because as far as I'm concerned, you just insulted my country by implying that we couldn't handle balancing religion with real life. I don't mind when people insult my country, if there's a ligitimate flaw. I wouldn't mind you criticizing our relatively poor environmental policy, or our governments willingness to support America against the will of the populace, or anything else we're doing wrong. But when you start making **** up, I get a little ticked off.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 03:36:55 pm by 302 »
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 

Offline Gank

  • 27
The world and it's two paths
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
EDIT: And don't bring anti-american sentiments into this thread. Whether you like it or not, this is not just America, this is a global trend, a global concern, and a global choice.


Are you high or something?

 

Offline ionia23

  • 26
  • "YES, I did finally see 'The Matrix' 12 years late
The world and it's two paths
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target

Think about it. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay. YOU may find it personally disgusting and wrong, but you don't have any right to make people believe the same thing.
However, religion is what's making us have this big fuss about gay rights. If we went for what was written down in the constitution, they should have the same rights.


Ain't picking on you, but riddle me this...

1. The US Constitution doesn't address marriage at all.  I understand the various States have their own definitions, but somewhere at the Federal level there has to be a law jotted down that states "Man And Woman".  I have yet to find it.  Can someone help?

2. Let me re-quote:


Think about it. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with being gay. YOU may find it personally disgusting and wrong, but you don't have any right to make people believe the same thing.


Ok.  If someone should not have the right to 'make' people beleive that being gay is immoral, why is it permissable for others to make people beleive that it IS moral?  Gay pride rallies, etc. I sum it up like this:

"If I have to accept your lifestyle choices, you have to accept my lack on enthusiasm about it."

No balance.

See, people are still under the impression that the 'gay' thing can be resolved through diplomacy.  It won't be.  Whoever has the most numbers wins.  If someone is dead set against homosexuality being acceptable in the public (or private) eye, then they will probably carry that to their graves.
"Why does it want me to say my name?"

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Steam
    • Something
The world and it's two paths
vyper, see also by Jefferson:

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

"All the world would be Christian if they were taught the pure Gospel of Christ!"

"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time."

In other words:  your point?

P.S.  Please note, this is not intended to argue for or against religous beliefs; it's simply a response to vyper's quote.

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
The world and it's two paths
I haven't seen any religion creeping into UK government, despite some of the more worrying security measures that have been taken during the last few years.  Offhand, I can't think of any particularly overtly religious government/nation in Europe.

I think the US' size, history of immigration, and it's founding principles (i.e. stemming from fleeing religious persecution), make it a somewhat unique case - in that it is large and diverse enough to have several polarised groups of religion.

 

Offline pyro-manic

  • Flambé
  • 210
The world and it's two paths
UT: I have to agree with Black Wolf on this - there are very few places in the world with anything like as much extremism as the USA. For the most part, people are able to get along very well.

I may disagree with people's beliefs or principles, but I have no objection to them being able to hold those beliefs, unless they try to force them on me or others. Most religions are now very modern, and highly tolerant of other cultures and faiths. The only exceptions AFAIK are in the USA and Africa, where Christians have rather hard-line and conservative views (this is a gross generalization, of course. Not every Christian is a fundie, but the ones that are tend to make a lot of noise in these places), and the extremist Islamic groups in the Middle East.

Now, these groups are a tiny minority - though they are very vocal about their views - and simply do not represent the vast majority of religious people around the world. Your comment that

"in order for us to move forward, the mainstream religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism must adapt to the changing world around them. It's as simple as that: humanity can not be held back by pretenses that existed before the New World was even discovered"

is simply insulting to the vast majority of people of faith. Of course, there are die-hard old-school zealots about, but they have a habit of getting ignored, marginalised by the rest of the community, and dying of old age still spouting the same tired old line. Then there's no more problem. The only place this seems to fail to happen on a large scale is Africa and the US (for Christianity), and parts of the Middle East (for Islam, on a smaller scale). The fact is, the problem is not with the religions, it's with the people. Why people act like this is a mystery to me, but there must be something wrong with the way the society works. Now, in Africa and the Middle East, that's not entirely surprising, with many countries being fairly young (arising from the collapse of the empires) or still being largely undeveloped economically, technologically or educationally. But America claims to be the Leader of the World in terms of culture, economics, "freedom" and technology. So what's going on in America to turn people into these hard-core fundamentalist nutjobs?

Quote

Originally posted by aldo:
I haven't seen any religion creeping into UK government, despite some of the more worrying security measures that have been taken during the last few years. Offhand, I can't think of any particularly overtly religious government/nation in Europe.


Turkey? Though I don't know whether you'd classify them as Europe or Asia Minor. Or both....

As for UK religion, I've never liked the thing about schools having to have a daily act of worship. I found that quite offensive from an early age (not least because I hated singing hymns!), and I wish they'd change that. It doesn't say Christian worship though, so that's a plus...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 04:47:55 pm by 853 »
Any fool can pull a trigger...

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
The world and it's two paths
Quote
Originally posted by pyro-manic
So what's going on in America to turn people into these hard-core fundamentalist nutjobs?


Fear.

 

Offline pyro-manic

  • Flambé
  • 210
The world and it's two paths
You may well be right. The pieces all start to fit together...
Any fool can pull a trigger...