[NGTM-1R]

There is nothing fundementally wrong with being gay...

...except of course the bit about going against a few hundred thousand years of evolution and directly defying your biology.

Not that I'm anti-gay, mind you, I just like to point out your thinking is utterly fallacious. I have no real issue with homosexuals. They're free to do whatever they want, and if they'll keep it to themselves and not bother me with it then I'll do the same.

And I agree, Unknown. The world stands on a brink here. We can utterly abandon religon, or we can reincorporate it. Neither of those is really going backwards or forwards. Most major religions have adapted to suit the fundemental social mores. You can't be a Catholic priest and female, but the Catholic Church has no objections to females performing almost any other job.
Relgion doesn't want to die, though. And in not wanting to die, it has created reactionaries. This is the process that created Muslim extremist terrorists, this is the process that created George W. Bush.

[Flipside]

Hmmmmmmmmm.........

Well, my own opinion is this :-

The world is a boat, adrift on a stormy sea. Just beyond the Horizons we can see shadows and flickers of things we do not understand. They may be evil beyond measure, they be 40 storey high lizards, or even gigantic man-eating telephones. They might also be enlightenment, advancement and understanding.

Religion is our Anchor. It is often described as such. the Anchor that holds this boat safe, secure.... and immobile. Oh, and the food is running out, and the fuel, and no-ones cleaned the Bilges in weeks, and some of the woodwork is starting to look a bit ropey......

At some point, as scary as it may seem, we are going to have to raise that anchor and see what is beyond the horizons, whatever the future may hold. It's that or sink.

[Blaise Russel]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
I just like to point out your thinking is utterly fallacious.

So is yours. Evolution is a process, not an entity with the goal of making heterosexual creatures so that they might make more heterosexual creatures in turn. Biology is a field of science, not a value judgement of different sexualities.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
There is nothing fundementally wrong with being gay...

...except of course the bit about going against a few hundred thousand years of evolution and directly defying your biology.

I've always seen the defying nature argument as very weak. Humans defy nature all the time but I've never seen anyone apart from the most rabid social darwinist ever say that treating sick children or cancer patients as being fundementally wrong just cause it goes against nature.

[Genryu]

Originally posted by Mongoose

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

Or in short : When he wakes up, we will all be smited

"All the world would be Christian if they were taught the pure Gospel of Christ!"

Meaning,given the number of priest then, that many didn't teach it

"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time."

So he also gave us liberty to choose if we wants to follow him or not, otherwise it's not liberty.

P.S.  Please note, this is not intended to argue for or against religous beliefs; it's simply a response to vyper's quote.

PS.   Please note, this is not intended to argue for or against religous beliefs; it's simply a response to Mongoose's quote

[Gank]

Originally posted by Flipside
At some point, as scary as it may seem, we are going to have to raise that anchor and see what is beyond the horizons, whatever the future may hold. It's that or sink.

Religion is an important part of humanity, it answers the big question "wtf is it all about". Ridding the world of all religion is a fine idea for somebody who can handle the fact that they dont, wont or cant get an answer to that but the majority of people need  an answer to it. Basically religion is here to stay, until such a time as we evolve into all knowing all seeing i's. Besides, most of the time you'll find religion is just being used as a cover for fear, which is what really holds people back. If you're worried about current religions holding people back, dont. Religions adapt. Judaism for example came from a failed attempt at monothesism in ancient Egypt, and in turn spawned Christianity along with some elements of Zoroastra. Islam was born from the same roots despite what sandwich and his fundie friends say, and Bhuddism is an offshoot of Hindu iirc. Religion will change as people do, ditching it aint going to do that.

[Flipside]

The most common mistake people make about evolution is that it is going from point A to point B and our role is to reproduce in order to move further towards that goal. It is not, Nature explodes in every direction at once, diversity and exploration is the purpose of evolution, to create life forms for every possible niche.

True, 'gay' sections of that community do not breed, but the whole idea of 'we exist to make more of ourselves' is wrong. We exist to explore the possibilities possible within our own genetic capabilities. It may be said that the 'worthy' get to breed, but that is a BioNeural action in the minds of the creatures themselves, not an intent of nature.

A high percentage of gay men are Bisexual, and many have fulfilled their wish for children despite being gay. This is not some plot hidden since the dawn of time to take over the world. It's the natural reaction to natural stimuli. Most humans think along the 'we exist to make more us' lines.

However, for any species to reach it's maximum potential as nature intended then diversity must be encouraged, not feared. In Iraq, not so long ago, it was considered 'Moral' to stone a woman in the streets for getting pregnant out of Wedlock. In some countries you can still 'morally' lose your hands for theft. In other countries it's perfectly legal to promote yourself for prostitution in a shop-window.

Morals shift and mutate to suit what is most convenient. This is why the invention of Media changed the world. All of a sudden 'Right and Wrong' could be defined by someone who had the authority to enforce them.

That technique continues even today, and, as always you have those that abuse the system. The problem is that, at the moment, they are pretty near the top.

Edit : I know what you mean Gank, I don't think mankind could truly give up religion, it would leave nothing to live for in a lot of ways, we would become self-destructive. However, we need to stop allowing our fear of the horizon stop us from going there. And we need, as you say, to stop people from using religion to scare us.

[ZylonBane]

Religion is an important part of humanity, it answers the big question "wtf is it all about".

No, that's what philosophy is for. Religion is just superstition with a newsletter.

[Ford Prefect]

I feel very strongly that religion is always going to be with us, because the religious tendency is not simply an establishment, it is an emotion, hardwired into our minds. I just mentioned earlier in another thread that one does not have to believe in god to know what religious ecstasy is, because like it or not, we all crave spiritual understanding. It's unavoidable.

Explaining the unexplainable is not simply about science vs. mythology, it is about seeing a universe that is either guided by some kind of conscious force, or one that is meaningless, unfeeling, and absurd. I believe the latter, but I like the former. This is why religion is never going to leave us.

As for religion holding us back from progress, I don't believe that. It's not humanity's religion that stifles us, but rather our simplistic view of our ideas. The idea that religion is a world of metaphor is unpleasant for most because it means that religion is of little use as a guideline for everyday life. I don't mean this to be derisive; the search for societal guidelines is a frustrating one. As long as we are what we are today, we will take ideas that really do not answer questions and squeeze them into concrete doctrines, so that we can go about our lives with some semblance of certainty. So when someone makes the effort to closely examine a "truth" to appreciate its full complexity, it will inevitably be seen as an attempt to sabotage everything that holds society together.

The only thing that will change this never-ending process is a fundamental change in the human mind itself. Perhaps that is a constant but very slow process, who knows.

[Flipside]

Let me put it this way....

Sharon, my partner, has never threatened me, has never dictated to me, and has accepted me for who I am without having 'expectations' that I am supposed to live up to. I'd move the world for her.

Give me a God I can love, not because it is powerful and can smite me, not because if I don't I'll go to Hell or some such place, not one that encourages me to do what my own self knows is wrong, not one that scares me into not facing my fears, and not one that demands my complete and utter aquiescence to it's every whim. Then I might have found something of interest.

[Taristin]

That's how I feel.

Now to find my Sharon...

[Gank]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
No, that's what philosophy is for. Religion is just superstition with a newsletter.

philosophy is for people with **** all better to do than think about ****e, religion is for people who are too busy paying for their houses, putting food on their table or bringing up their kids to wonder why the **** they're doing it. Most likely most of them know the answers religion provides arent quite right, but will stick to them because getting better ones is too much hassle. Thats human nature.

[icespeed]

religion and the state should be kept separate. people should believe whatever they like. there's no _point_ in forcing people to believe in a religion; they're just more likely to go somewhere else secretly. when the state uses religion- any religion- as an excuse for its actions, that's plain wrong. how can a state interpret it's actions as the will of God/Gods, what gives such a small minority of people the right to say what they're doing is right because God says so? how would _they_ know?

on a side note, the God i believe in loved us so much he sacrificed his own son so that we wouldn't have to go to hell. that's why i love him. he doesn't ask for me to be perfect, though it'd be nice if i were, he doesn't ask me to go through any rituals or whatever of purification, he just accepts me as i am.

[Ford Prefect]

Religion is philosophy. And they both suffer from the same oversimplification. It's impossible to discuss our position in existence without somehow coming to the question of god.

[SA22C]

I hate to break it to the thread author, but there is no 'crisis' of religion up here in good ol' Canada.  We just chug along like we always do and let the courts decide the really hard issues while making sure that no party with even an inkling of religious influence forms the government.

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Religion is philosophy.

Religion is the opposite of philosophy.

Philosophy is based on free thought, whereas religion is based on dogma.

[icespeed]

religion is based on revelation. which may be divine, drug-induced or simple raving.

[Ford Prefect]

Religion is not based on dogma. There is a difference between religious institution and religion itself. Religion is an emotion, not a thing. It is a reverent desire to immerse ourselves in the ponderous world around us, and that is exactly the same thing as philosophy.

Religious dogma is the result of a simplistic interpretation of that emotion. It is us naively thinking that we can actually come up with answers, and then apply them to society. It is the exact opposite of what religion essentially is.

That's not to say I think that there's anything we can do about religious dogma. Institution is as much a part of us as religion, and we can't get rid of either one.

[ZylonBane]

It sounds like you're confusing "religion" with spirituality.

[Ford Prefect]

Not entirely, no. Mythology specific to a religion forms its allegorical framework, but it doesn't itself tell people what to do.