[Drew]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041118/D86DVIG00.html

borrowing money is just going to increase the thing that gives us a defecit. We keep spending and creating new programs on our defecit, and its killing us.

That just gives the US more money to make more programs that steal more money from me, giving me less money to buy my guitar, meaning Fender doesnt get more money, wich means the government gets less taxes, which means that they have to keep borrowing over, or raise ****ing taxes.

[Rictor]

But remember, these are the conservatives in power now. They are completely dedicated to pushing down the national debt.

..oh wait.

[Drew]

8 trillion is a ****load of ****ing money

[Drew]

Originally posted by Rictor
But remember, these are the conservatives in power now. They are completely dedicated to pushing down the national debt.

..oh wait.

Bush is disapointing me. . I thought he would have some knowledge of econ, or at least a working Austrian version of it.
Bush is a ****ing domestic Liberal.  THis term is his domestic reign, and his new policies and appointments are way to liberal.

[aldo_14]

It is a good way to close the defecit if you can postpone the debt repayments until you're term ends.....either way you're not affected - and if the opposing party wins, then you can blame them over the next 4 years for your own mistake.

Oh, and do you actually know what liberal means?  Americans seem to use it as a political insult, and I've never understood why, as it's meaning is almost (almost?) completely positive.

[Rictor]

Not to derail the topic, but which of his appointments is anything other than yes-men, warmongers or business interests? There isn't a moderate among them (well, among all the important ones), much less a liberal.

Though I do agree that his economic policies are not even close to conservative, and not even close to the laisse-faire free market that he, and all other US politicians, go on about.

[Flipside]

Heh, well, whether it is Republican or Democrat, this kind of action will end up forcing America to open up it's market in the long run.

[Drew]

Originally posted by aldo_14
It is a good way to close the defecit if you can postpone the debt repayments until you're term ends.....either way you're not affected - and if the opposing party wins, then you can blame them over the next 4 years for your own mistake.

Oh, and do you actually know what liberal means?  Americans seem to use it as a political insult, and I've never understood why, as it's meaning is almost (almost?) completely positive.

Government has a history of spending on a defecit, and they often never cut back on spending when they are faced with one.  
It donsnt fix the problem.

Bush's 3-Something-Trillion Medicar policy starts stealing from me in 06(?).

I do know what liberal means. The defenition has historically fluxuated, as Liberal in 1900 meant the opposite of what it does now. You live in the UK, and the defenition is probably different that what it means over here. Basically, today's liberal means leftist. Meaning, in America, heavy government spending, and\or a progressive socialist agenda, welfare and such. Look in some of Kaz threads for more examples.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Rictor
Not to derail the topic, but which of his appointments is anything other than yes-men, warmongers or business interests? There isn't a moderate among them (well, among all the important ones), much less a liberal.

Though I do agree that his economic policies are not even close to conservative, and not even close to the laisse-faire free market that he, and all other US politicians, go on about.

Appointing people who dont agree with you dosnt make sense. Most of his appointments are aimed at bringing minorities under the Republican banner. Condi, as smart and respectable as she is, does not have the experience or qualifications to replace John Ashcroft.

Republicans are wimps. They dont fight. Confrentational politics is not part of their playbook, and thats why they always screw over their constitunency.
US politicians ignore Laisse-Faire doctrine. Maybe Regan on the surface, but the last true laisse-fair president was Coolidge.

In 40 years, Republicans are going to be 80's-90's Democrats, the Democrat party will dissapear, and the Libertarian and Constitutional cause are going to have a much bigger voice.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Drew

Basically, today's liberal means leftist. Meaning, in America, heavy government spending, and\or a progressive socialist agenda, welfare and such. Look in some of Kaz threads for more examples.

No, that's not what liberal means.

 That's a politicised bastardization of the meaning of the word, which has been succesfully adopted as a method of criticism.

The dictionary definition of liberal, specifcally the adjective 'liberal', is;
[code]
 lib·er·al   Audio pronunciation of "liberal" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
   1.
         1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
         2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
         3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
         4. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
   2.
         1. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
         2. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
   3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
   4. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.
   5.
         1. Archaic. Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
         2. Obsolete. Morally unrestrained; licentious.


n.

   1. A person with liberal ideas or opinions.
   2. Liberal A member of a Liberal political party.[code]

EDIT; I mean, i just like the way that as soon as the government does something you don't like, they suddenly become 'liberal'.  I'm sorry, but use the world for what it means, not what you're made to think it means.  The world will be a better place for it.

[Drew]

Lets use a more historical defenition, not your modern one.

Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lEodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way c : AMPLE, FULL
3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE
5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives
- lib·er·al·ly  /-b(&-)r&-lE/ adverb
- lib·er·al·ness noun
synonyms LIBERAL, GENEROUS, BOUNTIFUL, MUNIFICENT mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. LIBERAL suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given . GENEROUS stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift . BOUNTIFUL suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing . MUNIFICENT suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes .

Mariam Webster


The defenition has changed to me more like yours.
Your defenition actually supports what I said.
Liberals like to hand out money; welfare is an example.
Fight "bigotry"; homosexual marriage
Ignore historical "orthadox" moral beliefs
Propose programs that "progress" and "reform";

Basically, "loose" and "open"

[Roanoke]

you don't like welfare Drew ?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Drew
(cut)


The defenition has changed to me more like yours.
Your defenition actually supports what I said.
Liberals like to hand out money; welfare is an example.
Fight "bigotry"; homosexual marriage
Ignore historical "orthadox" moral beliefs
Propose programs that "progress" and "reform";

Basically, "loose" and "open"

And this is bad why?
NB: liberal doesn't entail 'ignoring' orthodox beliefs, but simply being willing to reconsider them.  Likewise, welfare is not 'handing out money',  but a necessary support system for those less fortunate - on that topic, have you ever been unemployed for a prolonged period*?  Your profile says you were born in 1988, which implies to me you've never been in that position of having to rely upon state support whilst searching for work.

NB: why should an older definition be considered more relevant than a more modern one?  Sure the etymology is just as important as any initial meaning?

*i.e. seeking full-time permanent work

[Gank]

Given that hes 16 I doubt hes ever looked for work at all Aldo, hence he doesnt appreciate it for what it is and views it as a waste of taxes he doesnt pay. Theres a good reason they dont let them vote you know.

[Flipside]

LOL Meet the Liberal, the new Commie......

So much for the Christian God of Charity to the poor and helpless eh? Every man to himself and all that

I dare not type any more......

Tell you what.... look up the average wage of an American Airlines pilot, a great many of them fall below the welfare bracket and are entitled to food subsidies (although AA lands heavily on them if they 'disrepute' the company by doing so). Think about that, the man who is at the controls of several hundred tons of explosive flying metal is being paid below the poverty line. Does that scare you? Because it should.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Flipside

Tell you what.... look up the average wage of an American Airlines pilot, a great many of them fall below the welfare bracket and are entitled to food subsidies (although AA lands heavily on them if they 'disrepute' the company by doing so). Think about that, the man who is at the controls of several hundred tons of explosive flying metal is being paid below the poverty line. Does that scare you? Because it should.

Really?  That's ****ing insane - pilots have more responsibility for human life than, well, any other civillian individual has.

[Flipside]

Precisely, but most internal flights are piloted by the less experienced pilots, and a great deal of them are on a wage that actually makes them eligible for welfare.

The problem is that when a pilot actually tried to claim his welfare, the company basically told him to either stop or get sacked, in case it made AA look bad.

http://www.willflyforfood.cc/Payscales/AmericanPay.htm

Compared to :-

http://www.willflyforfood.cc/Payscales/AtlasPay.htm

And that's for Atlas Air Cargo haulage, not passengers.

[aldo_14]

Bugger me.  Know the UK airline rates (or indeed any other nations airlines) perchance?

[Flipside]

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/downloads/occprofiles/profile_pdfs/P2_Airline_pilot.pdf

Best I could do for the UK I'm afraid. I'll keep hunting though

[Stealth]

thats more 0s than i can count on my fingers